Why the Chinese play cricket (an Imperial Federation timeline)

[Miss Construction]

Mostly thinking there needs to be some sort of check so tye commons can't pass bills without the proper scrutiny.

Also in theory the crown is supposed to be impartial I could see both the opposition and the govt trading on this

Given the other issue around the constitutional system of any future CW, it is something I do need to revisit.

 

[lusitano 1996]

I've been giving this some though t over the last hour or two since the issue occurred to me and done some quick and dirty 'research.' I very much hesitate to attach the word to research to maybe an hour spent googling but it has given me a basis to work from. While there is a growing recognition of the inevitability of some form of Indian self-rule in the British political establishment even in1906 ITTL (the proposed Grey-Morley reforms mentioned in the latest chapter are a result of this awareness). Any understanding of the fact that keeping India in the Commonwealth will require giving them a say in Imperial affairs which at least approaches full membership isn't likely to arise for at least a decade or two (in 1906 even the most progressive members of the British political establishment would be horrified at anything other than Anglo-Indian observers appointed by the Viceroy at Imperial Conferences). So this won't come up until the 1920s.

Looking at it then, there are really not many places where new white Dominions could be created. The only places where the white population will hit even 5% are Southern Rhodesia, the British West Indies and possibly Malaya (though I'm dubious of that last one). And that's after taking into account two significant factors which will increase the white populations in the colonies ITTL (see below). Now in the OTL, while Southern Rhodesia was never formally granted Dominion status, to all intents an purposes it was one. It was granted responsible government at the same level (albeit white only), attended all Imperial Conferences once they had responsible government as a full participant and was included in all Imperial institutions equally with the Dominions after. And the white population there never grew above 8% (it will go higher ITTL but no more than the 10-15% range). So given that example Southern Rhodesia, along with maybe Jamaica, British Guiana and Trinidad and Tobago. But all would be racist on a par with South Africa, with the attendant issues further down the line.

There is however one other option I came up with to create new white member of the CW. Several of the existing potential full members could potentially be split into two new members. In Britain itself, England itself could be spit north/south, calls for which could even naturally arise in the process of devolution already occuring ITTL. In Canada the area around Montreal could be split from Quebec, though this will inevitable mean facing the issue of anti Quebecios racism sooner than the OTL. I did consider the potential of splitting Ontario, but don't have enough information to say if its reasonable at the moment. In Australia both New South Wales and Victoria could potentially be split. And finally, New Zealand could be split into North Island and South Island. However all these potential splits appear to me even less likely than creating new racist white Dominions. The only two I see could realistically be justified are splitting off North England and possibly Montreal from Quebec. But even that I think is stretching it.

* The two factors are firstly there are more British and Dominion settlers moving to the colonies ITTL due to increased Imperial investment. And secondly, part of that increased investment is the 'cynically opportunistic' policy (and I think I'm being polite calling it that) of using the endemic persecution of the Jewish minorities in Europe to encourage their migration to the colonies (something very likely to increase significantly post Great War as people blame 'the usual suspects' due to the the massive trauma of its horrors). This policy is a deliberate attempt to create an educated non-indigenous minorities instead of education the local population. The stated reason would be it's faster and cheaper due to their cultural background combined with they already have the education required. The unstated reason is it creates an alien minority who's position is dependent on remaining part of the Empire, thus giving them a strong motivation to support it.

I think the white populations od rhodesia and south africa cold be increased significantly , first they could wave of most or all income requirements , that would mean more settlers from the british isles , and in the future they could open the doors to southern and east europeans , depending of when they decide to do this it could mean maybe millions of white settlers , with increased infrastructure and industry many poor europeans would gladly go there , if alowed in, rhodesia could have maybe 20 % , south africa if they play their cards well , maybe a bit more 25 % or 30 % .

 

[anyone]

I do hope that as time moves forwards, by at least the 30’s there will be progressives pushing to uplift and educate native peoples to increase their standard of living

 

[Miss Construction]

I think the white populations od rhodesia and south africa cold be increased significantly , first they could wave of most or all income requirements , that would mean more settlers from the british isles , and in the future they could open the doors to southern and east europeans , depending of when they decide to do this it could mean maybe millions of white settlers , with increased infrastructure and industry many poor europeans would gladly go there , if alowed in, rhodesia could have maybe 20 % , south africa if they play their cards well , maybe a bit more 25 % or 30 % .

I have developed a rough option which will give the four extra white full members, making granting the Indian states full membership palatable to the sensibilities of the time (AKA racism). First is there will be two extra Canadian Provinces. The Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan were created from four districts of the then Northern Territories, namely the Districts of Alberta, Athabasca, Assinibioa and Saskatchewan. In the OTL most of these four districts became the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, though a large chunk of Athabasca was given to Manitoba. However ITTL, each of the districts will become a new Province in an effort by Laurier's Liberals to increase their support. Secondly the 1921 referendum in Southern Rhodesia on joining South Africa will pass ITTL, making it the fifth Province of the Union as Rhodesia, with Northern Rhodesia remaining a colony and renamed Zambeziland. Finally pressure for increased devolution in the UK will see the historic counties of Cheshire, Cumberland, Durham, Lancashire, Northumberland, Westmorland, and Yorkshire forming a sixth Home Nation. Not entirely sure what it will be called, at the moment the best I can come up with is North Counties, I'm hoping I (or someone else hint hint) can think of something better lol.

 

[lusitano 1996]

I have developed a rough option which will give the four extra white full members, making granting the Indian states full membership palatable to the sensibilities of the time (AKA racism). First is there will be two extra Canadian Provinces. The Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan were created from four districts of the then Northern Territories, namely the Districts of Alberta, Athabasca, Assinibioa and Saskatchewan. In the OTL most of these four districts became the Provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, though a large chunk of Athabasca was given to Manitoba. However ITTL, each of the districts will become a new Province in an effort by Laurier's Liberals to increase their support. Secondly the 1921 referendum in Southern Rhodesia on joining South Africa will pass ITTL, making it the fifth Province of the Union as Rhodesia, with Northern Rhodesia remaining a colony and renamed Zambeziland. Finally pressure for increased devolution in the UK will see the historic counties of Cheshire, Cumberland, Durham, Lancashire, Northumberland, Westmorland, and Yorkshire forming a sixth Home Nation. Not entirely sure what it will be called, at the moment the best I can come up with is North Counties, I'm hoping I (or someone else hint hint) can think of something better lol.

Very cool , are you planning for the african menbers to be more open of non british european emmigration ? they will really need in the future
Also after all of that a map would be cool

 

[anyone]

The possibility of a dominion in East Africa may also begin a discussion on what is to be done with Sudan, especially South Sudan, considering their resistance to Egyptian rule OTL.

 

[Miss Construction]

I do hope that as time moves forwards, by at least the 30’s there will be progressives pushing to uplift and educate native peoples to increase their standard of living

Sadly the overt racism which is driving this was very much a part of the Empire well into the 60s, you only need to look at the massive scandal over the marriage of Seretse Khama (he became the first Prime Minister of Botswana after independence) to Ruth Williams (an unknown white middle class English woman from London) . That happened in 1947 and became a major international incident within the Commonwealth. with blatant and outright political meddling attempting to have it annulled, and when that failed, Khama and his wife being forced into exile. But yes, this will change, the process has already begun.

Initially this will primarily be driven by pure economic practicality and is already happening. Low tech industry (taking advantage of the pool of cheap labour there) and resource processing (its very simply more efficient to ship steel across the globe than unrefined iron ore). are migrating to the colonies ITTL But for this to work, that pool of cheap labour will require a certain level of at least basic education. But beyond this, the increasingly liberal and even radical of the Imperial population, will result in a backlash against this racism throughout the Home Nations and Dominions. It will be take a LONG time and be a shit fight, but opposition to this racism will become a major factor in CW politics starting in the 1930s or 1940s probably. Starting and strongest in the Home Nations (particularly Ireland). Not as strong but still fairly strong in Canada (though opposition in Quebec will likely be similar to the Home Nations). Opposition will lag in New Zealand but still be important, just delayed about a decade. Australia will be still further down the line, but it should be significant by the late 1950s or early 1960s. The hold outs will be the South Africans and curiously Fiji. Fiji is a very unusual example of colonialism, the British took unprecedented steps for the time to protect indigenous rights, especially land rights, and incorporate indigenous Fijians into the colonial administration. This (with a couple of other factors) resulted in indigenous Fijians becoming very pro Empire with their own form of racism (mostly against the Indian migrant workers the British shipped in). But eventually opposition to racism will become a factor even in South Africa, with Fiji probably being its last bastion.

Plus India is not the only part of the Empire which quite literal has to be retained for the CW to survive. The Suez Canal and need to maintain the Malaya Barrier to protect India make Egypt and Malaya just as vital, losing them would cripple the CW. Some other places are almost as important, Gibraltar, Malta, some presence in the Caribbean and West Africa to protect communications. Hong Kong to maintain influence in China, the entire route of the Cape to Cairo Railway are also pretty significant. Nationalism in any of these regions can not be ignored, and the natural instinct will be to follow the same path as with India, creating an educated local elite with a vested interest in remaining part of the CW to give some kind of self rule. The "It worked there, so should work with them" attitude. Of course the CW won't have the 60 years they had with India in these cases, so other solutions may very likely need to be found. But that's still far in the future in the first decade of the 20th century.

 

[Miss Construction]

Very cool , are you planning for the african menbers to be more open of non british european emmigration ? they will really need in the future
Also after all of that a map would be cool

I have to say, despite it being a result of my pushing the TL in the specific direction I desired, I think it is a surprisingly elegant push. A number of apparently unconnected developments, all of which feasibly could have come about due to factors entirely unrelated to the real reason I moved the TL that way. No use of an electric cattle prod required at all this time lol

And yes I know I need more maps, they just take some time to produce. At the moment I'm focusing on rebuilding the five year cushion I like to be keep between what I've posted and what I've finished developing.

The possibility of a dominion in East Africa may also begin a discussion on what is to be done with Sudan, especially South Sudan, considering their resistance to Egyptian rule OTL.

The entire process of whatever replaces British decolonialisation ITTL is going to be fascinating. There are just so many challenges to overcome and so many possibilities. To be totally honest, I'm still far from sure I can make it work. Even with everything I've done and am planning to do, a lasting Imperial Federation might well still prove ultimately impossible. But the very process of seriously attempting it is going to change the TL beyond recognition. Regardless how this eventually comes out, the world will be remade because of it. No matter where this ends up, it sure as F won't be Kansas any more.

 

[mudhead]

Armed with six 12” guns in two twin turrets fore and aft, with two singles amidships, allowing five to bear on the broadside

I think this was an OTL idea, rejected due to French analysis of the Russo-Japanese war.

February 1906: French naval architect Léon Lyasse, working with Eustace d'Eyncourt finalises the design of the new French class of battleship. With three to be ordered this year and another three next, the Danton class will displace 18,000

The Dantons (I think the only pre-Dreadnoughts with turbines) took up the slips for so long that true dreadnoughts were impossible to build. Enforced design changes, largely - not principally the fault of the yards.

That's because it was meant to become part of Australia as was New Zealand.

A narrow escape.

* The two factors are firstly there are more British and Dominion settlers moving to the colonies ITTL due to increased Imperial investment. And secondly, part of that increased investment is the 'cynically opportunistic' policy (and I think I'm being polite calling it that) of using the endemic persecution of the Jewish minorities in Europe to encourage their migration to the colonies (something very likely to increase significantly post Great War as people blame 'the usual suspects' due to the the massive trauma of its horrors). This policy is a deliberate attempt to create an educated non-indigenous minorities instead of education the local population. The stated reason would be it's faster and cheaper due to their cultural background combined with they already have the education required. The unstated reason is it creates an alien minority who's position is dependent on remaining part of the Empire, thus giving them a strong motivation to support it.

Greg Grant's stories set in an existing Imperial Russia feature a British Empire boosted by Jewish immigration.​

Death by Telefon: An Airport Novel​

Once Upon a Time in Imperial Russia​

The Regency Crisis of '75: An Imperial Russian Tale​

I have to say, despite it being a result of my pushing the TL in the specific direction I desired, I think it is a surprisingly elegant push.

Everything about you is elegant.

 

[Miss Construction]

I think this was an OTL idea, rejected due to French analysis of the Russo-Japanese war.

The Dantons (I think the only pre-Dreadnoughts with turbines) took up the slips for so long that true dreadnoughts were impossible to build. Enforced design changes, largely - not principally the fault of the yards.

A reply in two parts because this one qualifies as an update lol.

This TL's Dantons are somewhat different from those of the OTL. Most importantly, the designers aren't to constantly tinkering with the design trying to get it just right. They have been told in no uncertain terms, once the characteristics are set LEAVE IT ALONE! This will have two effects. Most obviously, speeding construction time, less obviously making more efficient in use of available tonnage, since you're not constantly trying to bodge new things into it. Secondly is the involvement of d'Eyncourt. He has access, at least unofficial to the results of the RN's 'Battle of the Kentish Coast' exercise. He can't pass the details on, but he can incorporate elements into the design, primarily the importance of long range fire, hence the six 12" guns.

Yes the French did take from the need for fast firing intermediate calibre guns from the Russo-Japanese war. Their secondaries are actually the same 7.6" guns, of the previous Liberte class because of this, though only eight rather than the ten of the Liberte with some 3" tertiaries for anti torpedo boat work. However I believed the reason for the rejection of the six 12" design was the displacement limit of 18,000 (they knew they were going over, the design calcs said 18,300). In the OTL they came out at 18,800 in reality. In this TL weight has been saved by designing them from the start for turbines (OTL the initial design was TE) and the use of small water tube boilers. However, I've increased the displacement to 19,000 tons to give a bigger margin and allow for overweight items such as the m1906 12"guns (another thing added later in the OTL but from get go ITTL) so they actually do come out at 19,000, Should probably also mention the 7.6" secondaries though. The biggest failing of the design is the use of small water tube boilers. The technology isn't mature enough yet, it will cause considerable problems with reliability.

So....

=====/

February 1906: French naval architect Léon Lyasse, working with Eustace d'Eyncourt finalises the design of the new French class of battleship. With three to be ordered this year and another three next, the Danton class will displace 19,000 tons and introduce numerous new features to French warships, including all big gun armament, small water tube boilers and turbine propulsion. Armed with six 12” guns in twin turrets fore and aft, with two singles amidships, eight 7.6” secondaries and protected by a 10” belt. While their turbine engines and boilers give them a speed of 20 knots. Unfortunately the Danton's advanced machinery will prove unreliable in service, with heavy fuel consumption limiting their range. While featuring an 'all big armament' they are general not considered dreadnoughts due to their limited broadside of five guns.

=McUpdate=

 

[Miss Construction]

A narrow escape.

I know more than a few people who might agree haha

Greg Grant's stories set in an existing Imperial Russia feature a British Empire boosted by Jewish immigration.​

Death by Telefon: An Airport Novel​

Once Upon a Time in Imperial Russia​

The Regency Crisis of '75: An Imperial Russian Tale​

Ohhhh sounds interesting. Always looking for new reading material so added tomy list

Everything about you is elegant.

Why thank you, flattery will get you everywhere. But I think this fix is particularly good.

 

[anyone]

Sadly the overt racism which is driving this was very much a part of the Empire well into the 60s, you only need to look at the massive scandal over the marriage of Seretse Khama (he became the first Prime Minister of Botswana after independence) to Ruth Williams (an unknown white middle class English woman from London) . That happened in 1947 and became a major international incident within the Commonwealth. with blatant and outright political meddling attempting to have it annulled, and when that failed, Khama and his wife being forced into exile. But yes, this will change, the process has already begun.

Initially this will primarily be driven by pure economic practicality and is already happening. Low tech industry (taking advantage of the pool of cheap labour there) and resource processing (its very simply more efficient to ship steel across the globe than unrefined iron ore). are migrating to the colonies ITTL But for this to work, that pool of cheap labour will require a certain level of at least basic education. But beyond this, the increasingly liberal and even radical of the Imperial population, will result in a backlash against this racism throughout the Home Nations and Dominions. It will be take a LONG time and be a shit fight, but opposition to this racism will become a major factor in CW politics starting in the 1930s or 1940s probably. Starting and strongest in the Home Nations (particularly Ireland). Not as strong but still fairly strong in Canada (though opposition in Quebec will likely be similar to the Home Nations). Opposition will lag in New Zealand but still be important, just delayed about a decade. Australia will be still further down the line, but it should be significant by the late 1950s or early 1960s. The hold outs will be the South Africans and curiously Fiji. Fiji is a very unusual example of colonialism, the British took unprecedented steps for the time to protect indigenous rights, especially land rights, and incorporate indigenous Fijians into the colonial administration. This (with a couple of other factors) resulted in indigenous Fijians becoming very pro Empire with their own form of racism (mostly against the Indian migrant workers the British shipped in). But eventually opposition to racism will become a factor even in South Africa, with Fiji probably being its last bastion.

Plus India is not the only part of the Empire which quite literal has to be retained for the CW to survive. The Suez Canal and need to maintain the Malaya Barrier to protect India make Egypt and Malaya just as vital, losing them would cripple the CW. Some other places are almost as important, Gibraltar, Malta, some presence in the Caribbean and West Africa to protect communications. Hong Kong to maintain influence in China, the entire route of the Cape to Cairo Railway are also pretty significant. Nationalism in any of these regions can not be ignored, and the natural instinct will be to follow the same path as with India, creating an educated local elite with a vested interest in remaining part of the CW to give some kind of self rule. The "It worked there, so should work with them" attitude. Of course the CW won't have the 60 years they had with India in these cases, so other solutions may very likely need to be found. But that's still far in the future in the first decade of the 20th century.

I admit that's rather disheartening, but entirely expected considering it's around the time the US truly had to reckon with it OTL (not the greatest reference considering it will be for entirely different reasons). Also I would think that it's not really unlikely for a united Imperial Federation to survive once they empower the right people and make it a sweeter deal than any kind of independence or disconnection from the crown (although it sounds like you plan for a few to slip the net, like Bostwana). What I've always loved in these kinds of TLs is when it comes out how the Congo is and other Imperial powers dealing with this issue (preferably some kind of annexation) and the issues posed in Portuguese colonies.

Edit: I know you are aiming for a level of realism which may not be found in these other timelines but I just thought it interesting.

 

[Miss Construction]

One further note on the Danton class hopefully highlighting their differences ITTL

Danton class (OTL)
18,800 tons, 4 x 12”, 6 (12) x 9.4”, 8 (16) x 3”, 1 (2) x 18” TT uw, 10” belt, 2” deck, 19.5 knots Tu WT Coal, short range
- Danton, ordered 1906, laid down 8/1907, commissioned 6/1911
- Condorcet, ordered 1906, laid down 6/1907, commissioned 7/1911
- Diderot, ordered 1906, laid down 10/1907, commissioned 7/1911
- Mirabeau, ordered 1907, laid down 4/1908, commissioned 8/1911
- Vergniaud, ordered 1907, laid down 7/1908, commissioned 12/1911
- Voltaire, ordered 1907, laid down 1/1908, commissioned 8/1911

Danton class (ITTL)
19,000 tons, 5 (6) x 12”, 4 (8) x 7.6”, 6 (12) x 3”, 1 (2) x 18” TT uw, 10” belt, 2” deck, 20 knots Tu SW Coal, short range, unreliable machinery
- Danton, ordered 1906, laid down 12/1906, commissioned 6/1910
- Condorcet, ordered 1906, laid down 1/1907, commissioned 7/1910
- Diderot, ordered 1906, laid down 4/1907, commissioned 8/1910
- Mirabeau, ordered 1907, laid down 11/1907, commissioned 8/1910
- Vergniaud, ordered 1907, laid down 1/1908, commissioned 9/1910
- Voltaire, ordered 1907, laid down 1/1908, commissioned 8/1910

 

[JSC]

An easier way to go about it would be to give limited weighting to population. Say everyone gets one vote than additional vote at 500,000, 1M, 5M, 10M, etc. At the moment it seems completely unfeasible that Fiji (population 125,000) has the same voting power as England (population 33,500,000). It is a level of weighting that makes the US Senate seem fair by comparison and is by an extremely large margin the most unequal body in the world currently ITTL and OTL. You can tweak the number to maximize white vote while still diluting the extremely large Indian states like Uttar Pradesh.

The other problem that you'll run into though is that just because a dominion is "white" as a whole doesn't mean that each constituent part is white. This will mostly apply to South Africa with the white population concentrated in the Cape and breaking it up will likely end up with non-white dominions being created. In fact I could see the push to break up South Africa come from the Zulu and Xhosa tribes that are numerous and still organized in this time period. I would also be interested in seeing demographics for North Australia, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in this time period. I would venture to say that even though non-whites are not a majority they are probably a very large minority in the regions.

I do agree though that long term a unified British commonwealth/empire will lead to the dissolution of the federations within that empire. There is no reason for "Canada" to exist when each province can look to its internal affairs and larger projects would be handled at the Imperial level. The same goes for Australia, United Kingdom, South Africa, Nigeria, and a host of others. It wouldn't surprise me to see dozens of new "dominions" created as the imperial core strengthens itself at the cost of the "middle"

 

[Miss Construction]

I admit that's rather disheartening, but entirely expected considering it's around the time the US truly had to reckon with it OTL (not the greatest reference considering it will be for entirely different reasons). Also I would think that it's not really unlikely for a united Imperial Federation to survive once they empower the right people and make it a sweeter deal than any kind of independence or disconnection from the crown (although it sounds like you plan for a few to slip the net, like Bostwana). What I've always loved in these kinds of TLs is when it comes out how the Congo is and other Imperial powers dealing with this issue (preferably some kind of annexation) and the issues posed in Portuguese colonies.

Edit: I know you are aiming for a level of realism which may not be found in these other timelines but I just thought it interesting.

You're not the only one who finds the social attitudes of this period 'distressing.' Over and over again while working on this TL I run headlong into things which make me go "holy crap, they were that bad!" I try really hard to remain dispassionate about them, but really so much which was totally socially acceptable then just makes my skin crawl. But like you say, I want to be realistic. These things are part of the period, so I leave them in, work with them and some occasions even add them in, because that's what would have happened then in the circumstances the TL has thrown up. And thank you for that comment, made my day.

On the other hand, I know things are happening ITTL which will change those attitudes much sooner than than the OTL in many places, it's already happened. Women's rights in the Empire are about to leapfrog the OTL by over a decade with full women's suffrage. Labour rights and social welfare are already ahead. The Home Nations and white Dominions as of the 20th century are almost certainly the most socially progressive places in the world, advancing at an unprecedented pace.

Sadly that's about to change. One of the flow on effects of the (now unstoppable) industrial and economic development of the Empire as industry relocates from the Home Nations to the Dominions and Colonies means people will start losing jobs. This must cause some kind of backlash. The Conservative Party in Britain by 1911 been in opposition all but five years since 1883, there is way they won't capitalise on the backlash. Unlikely any gains will be lost, but social progress will slow down. And eventually the backlash will spread to white Dominions as they start to lose jobs to the colonies. Probably not as bad as the Home Nations, but it will happen.

However not all is bad ahead. I can safely say now, the Great War is inevitable, it will start some time between September 1912 and May 1913, and the US will be dragged boots and all within 18 months. I know that definitely does seem like a good thing. Mass slaughter on an industrial scale isn't. But the US (and Japan) will be on the winning side. As per the OTL this trauma will create a massive shift in social attitudes. Within a few years of the end of the war the US will leave the Empire eating it's dust as the most socially progressive place in the world. With Japan following closely behind. Civil rights, labour law, women's rights, social welfare will be many decades ahead of the OTL within 15-20 years. Japan will transform into a liberal western democracy (more or less) at the same time. Hell the US will probably even have some form f gun control which would our NRA etc spontaneously]y combusting all over the place.

So when I hit the plentiful quantities of shit the TL throws up, I just keep in mind, things will change for the better faster than the OTL for many things at least in some places. Not going to be a wondrous paradise, but neither is the OTL right here and now. Still have a fair numbers of horrors to come. Anti Jewish racism will raise it very ugly head high after the Great War, but probably not as badly as the OTL. Old school pre Great Wat Real Politick and European Imperialism are going to hang around probably longer than the OTL now the US have so obviously joined the game. Decolonisation will likely be messier in what's going to be a multipolar world with at least three if not four roughly equal global powers and no 800lb gorilla superpowers throwing their weight around (see below).

And I think it far from unlikely TTL will be even as 'sensible' with nukes and other WMDs as we are in the OTL. Mutually Assured Destruction may be the most insane and immoral idea we as a species have ever come up, but I get this niggling feeling TTL top it with WMDs regarded as just another weapon to be used when convenient. ITTL I can see the thinking going: got a bunker needing busting, a handy 10-20Kton nuke will do it nicely lol. Pretty sure that's how chemical weapons will be seen at least.

* Yes I know the CW is an 800lb gorilla superpower (actually a several thousand lb gorilla hyperpower dwarfing the others in raw potential power) but it truly sucks at throwing all that weight around. It would take something truly monumental to focus that raw power on one thing.

 

[anyone]

The nuke thing I don’t see as unlikely as we developed tactical nukes otl and are able to change the properties of bombs to minimize or maximize radiation

 

[carbon1923]

Something I've never got is why every alternate timeline seems to have nukes become just another part of war, rather than MAD becoming standard. It feels like alternate history writers think every timeline other than ours has to be worse.

Anyway, I think China is making a great decision by focusing on education over fast industry. This means when they do start to industrialise they will have a native workforce with the education necessary to operate and develop it, rather then need to rely on forgein experts.

 

[Miss Construction]

An easier way to go about it would be to give limited weighting to population. Say everyone gets one vote than additional vote at 500,000, 1M, 5M, 10M, etc. At the moment it seems completely unfeasible that Fiji (population 125,000) has the same voting power as England (population 33,500,000). It is a level of weighting that makes the US Senate seem fair by comparison and is by an extremely large margin the most unequal body in the world currently ITTL and OTL. You can tweak the number to maximize white vote while still diluting the extremely large Indian states like Uttar Pradesh.

I'd agree, this would be a much better and more reasonable idea. And eventually something will have to replace what is, as you point out, a frankly ludicrous way to try and run a global power which likes to think of itself as a democracy. The problem is it doesn't take into account the nature of the Empire as at 1911 (where I've developed the TL too), how its evolving and how it actually currently works. At the start of the TL in 1870, the Empire was run almost entirely by the British. The Dominions had control over their domestic affairs and where expected to maintain a militia large enough to deal with local uprising and hold the line if a foreign power invaded till the British forces arrived. The British controlled everything else. They ran it, paid for it and defended it, what they said went. Well more or less, Natal did manage to drag the British kicking and screaming into two wars they didn't want and New Zealand had a good go at doing the same at doing the same a few times (thwarted by the lack of a navy).

Things began to change with the start of the Long Depression in 1873. This sparked the Europeans and US to ramp up tariffs to protect their domestic industry. This produced possibly one of the most important changes ITTL. The British abandoned their previously scared cow of free trade. They replaced with a policy of encouraging industrial economic development in the Dominions, aiming to transform them from captive markets and resource suppliers toward being proper trade partners. The theory was if they got richer, they could buy more British widgets. Plus why invest money in expanding US and Europe industry, infrastructure etc when you can get pretty much the same return on the money if you invest it the Dominions to do the same thing and at the same time maybe get them to cough up a bit more cash to help pay for running the Empire.

And it worked or at least started too. It also ran smack into a certain US President by the name of James Blaine in the 1880s, who ran round doing things like annexing Hawaii, trying to force the British out of Latin American, threatening to annex Panama, breaking treaties with Canada, and openly trying to build a navy intended to slug it out with the RN. This very successfully made the Dominions extremely concerned about security. Thus the process of Imperial begun in the 1870s started picking up pace, with the Dominions willing to bend on things like tariffs in return for increased British commitment to security. There was never any master plan to build an Imperial Federation, lots of people talked about it, but nobody really actively pursued that goal. What actually happened was the Dominions wanted a bigger voice in Imperial affairs (initially regarding security and foreign policy in Asia and the Pacific), with the British willing to listen in an effort to get further economic integration.

This merry meandering evolution continued along its happy undirected winding way right on up to the turn of the century. At which time people started noticing the Imperial Federation everyone kept mumbling about might actually be possible and started thinking "hey maybe we should do something about that." But nobody could actually agree on what to do or even what this hypothetical Imperial Federation should look like, let alone trying to figure how to run it. All these things got constantly put in the ' too hard basket' and kicked down the road for some unspecified time called later. Meanwhile the wandering unguided evolution of the CW kept right on trucking, so that by 1911, in a very real sense the Imperial Federation actually exists, just no one has sat down and tried to figure out how it should be organised, administered or governed. Not as in trying to work out the best way it should be run, as in pretty much nothing about how it should be run has been worked out at all. And now the world is riding the Great War Express with the end of the line in sight and coming up real fast.

This is currently the focus of most peoples attention and the consensus is now is not the time to risk damaging Imperial unity trying to sort this all out. So how the Empire is run is the result of a chaotic unplanned process of evolution in response to ongoing events. In general terms, the broad outline of Imperial policy is hashed out by a process of compromise at the Imperial Conferences which happen every two years. The convention had developed that any decisions of an Imperial Conference required unanimous consensus before they were accepted (hand up who's figured out what's coming up next). The Dominions let the British take the lead in implementing those policies in consultation with the standing Imperial Council in London. This includes representation from all the Dominions along with a number of the more important British cabinet ministers. The Council is supported by a permanent secretariat consisting of senior civil servants and military officers drawn from both Britain and the Dominions. The Council is officially just an advisory body, but it would be a rather foolish British PM who'd ignore it. This system actually worked quite well, and glaringly obvious problems with were ignored as part of that "its too hard or not important enough right now, we'll sort it out later" attitude which had plagued the development proper constitutional arrangements since 1880 (the date of the first Imperial Conference).

Or at least that's how it was run until Wilfred Laurier and his Liberal government were elected in Canada late 1904. While the concept of an Imperial Federation had the support of the majority of the public in Britain and the Dominions by then, It was a very long way from unopposed. And Laurier and his party were some of those who opposed it. They wanted to cut out from the Empire, roll back Imperial Integration, and build closer ties with the US. So they very simply refused to cooperate. They dug their feet in and said no to pretty much everything., preventing any consensus being reached. While day to day the Empire kept functioning, when it came to long term planning, developing policy etc, it ground a screeching halt. And this was right when three major international crisis hit in four years, each of which had a real risk of triggering a Great War.

At that point what passed for an Imperial constitution amounted to the belief there was a set of Core Imperial Principles which represented the common shared values of the Empire. Only one of these supposed principles had ever been spelt out, dealing with the free movement of labour with the Empire . There were also seven so called Imperial Doctrines (later would be renamed Commonwealth Doctrines) and one so called Extension to the first of those Doctrines. These were a set of compromise solutions to specific issues which had cropped up over time worked out by compromise at an Imperial Conference, accepted only after everyone agreed to them (as with everything at an Imperial Conference) and acknowledged as good guide for dealing with similar problems in the future. None of them came close to covering this situation, and since Laurier refused to accept any new Doctrine which didn't make any further Imperial Integration impossible, and even then only in return for agreement to roll back much of what had already been achieved, there was no way of resolving the situation short scrapping the entire system and trying to start again. Which would have effectively given Laurier exactly what he wanted.

Eventually the situation was resolved and the obstructionism came to an end. Won't say how, spoilers lol. But that took three and a half years and by then the world was gripped by the third and most serious yet International crisis. Faced with the imminent outbreak of a Great War (now felt to be inevitable in the very near future even if was avoided this time), and a system so obviously broken along with it being almost a year until the next Imperial Conference (see below),, a quick and dirty bodge fix was needed. This was an agreement that if war broke out, some kind of massive text only conference call using the All-Red Line would be held before any decisions were made. And when the next Imperial Conference did happen, while everyone agreed that kind of obstructionism should never be allowed to happen again. But it was also felt given the ever increasing likelihood of war breaking out at anytime, time was of the essence. So the result was another bodge fix. The new Brisbane Doctrine states:

Decisions at an Imperial Conference should be made by unanimous consensus whenever possible. However one member of the Empire should not be able to block the clear majority consensus when achieved. The clear majority shall be regarded as a two thirds majority in regard to Imperial security or foreign affairs, with a simple sufficient in all other cases.

This is where the one member one vote comes from. Everyone can see how much of a bodge it is and nobody is expecting it not to be replaced eventually, when they finally get round to figuring out how to run things. But the decision was " It will do for now. we can fix it later." Yep nobody learnt a damn thing from the situation lol

* Yes the obvious solution of an extraordinary emergency Imperial Conference was very seriously considered, but various factors made it impossible

The other problem that you'll run into though is that just because a dominion is "white" as a whole doesn't mean that each constituent part is white. This will mostly apply to South Africa with the white population concentrated in the Cape and breaking it up will likely end up with non-white dominions being created. In fact I could see the push to break up South Africa come from the Zulu and Xhosa tribes that are numerous and still organized in this time period. I would also be interested in seeing demographics for North Australia, Saskatchewan and Manitoba in this time period. I would venture to say that even though non-whites are not a majority they are probably a very large minority in the regions.

All I can say is see above. the current Imperial system is so incredibly broken, anything is possible

I do agree though that long term a unified British commonwealth/empire will lead to the dissolution of the federations within that empire. There is no reason for "Canada" to exist when each province can look to its internal affairs and larger projects would be handled at the Imperial level. The same goes for Australia, United Kingdom, South Africa, Nigeria, and a host of others. It wouldn't surprise me to see dozens of new "dominions" created as the imperial core strengthens itself at the cost of the "middle"

With the proviso of again see above. I'd think it very likely. Its in the nature of central governments. And the balkanisation policy is working in India. It will be the first go to.

 

[UrbanNight]

Not entirely sure what it will be called, at the moment the best I can come up with is North Counties, I'm hoping I (or someone else hint hint) can think of something better lol.

Northumbria mostly covers that area.

 

[anyone]

To be quite honest I don’t see the breakdown of these federations as something that’s achievable until the 50’s or 60’s. Primarily due to the bureaucratic difficulties with having so many provinces be represented in one capital. Sort of like how no one in America would be so crazy as to suggest states be abolished and it go drectly to counties being represented in Washington.