Is a successful 1918 Spring Offensive possible?

Successful OTL 1918 Spring Offensive? (US joins)

  • Likely had the Germans done something better

    Votes: 33 15.7%
  • Unlikely but not impossible

    Votes: 142 67.6%
  • Impossible, it was doomed to fail

    Votes: 35 16.7%

  • Total voters
    210

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Still waiting for an answer on Romania @Thoresby -

I mean, I humbly request one, it would be cool. You're not under obligation to produce one just because I asked in post #15 about what you said in post #14.
 
So, Romania just *waits* [maybe its skeptical of Allied victory, at least in 1916 or 1917, or some Allied powers- maybe Russia or Serbia, are too slow to agree to Romania’s desired territorial gains of greater Transylvania and Temesvar]. While it’s waiting, Brusilov offensive meets its culminating point and halts after the Lake Naroch failure and devastating German counterattacks in the northern sectors. Romanian entry into the war vs. CP is “on ice” through winter 1916-1917.

Consequently, Romania remains neutral, sovereign, and unoccupied, un-looted over fall and winter, only exporting the food CP can *pay* for. How much more effed are the CPs by Christmas 1916? Spring 1917? Summer 1917? Christmas 1917? Spring 1918?

Sorry, I missed this. If Romania stays out initially the CP are better off, it's one less front to fight on so in 1916 the CP are definitely disadvantaged. From the Fall of Bucharest to the Armistice in November 1917 it's probably a net, the CP have the oil fields and some agricultural areas but they've been damaged and the Romanians are still fighting. From November 1917 through to the CP collapse it's a massive plus, the 2 million tons of grain taken in that period was absolutely vital.

However despite outlining a best case scenario for the CP where they draw a long war tag required an implausibley perfect series of decisions. The only reliable route for the CP victory is taking Paris sooner rather than later, anything that distracts from that is unhelpful so on balance having fewer participants in the war is to the CP's overall benefit by allowing them to throw everything they have at France.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Sorry, I missed this. If Romania stays out initially the CP are better off, it's one less front to fight on so in 1916 the CP are definitely disadvantaged. From the Fall of Bucharest to the Armistice in November 1917 it's probably a net, the CP have the oil fields and some agricultural areas but they've been damaged and the Romanians are still fighting. From November 1917 through to the CP collapse it's a massive plus, the 2 million tons of grain taken in that period was absolutely vital.

However despite outlining a best case scenario for the CP where they draw a long war tag required an implausibley perfect series of decisions. The only reliable route for the CP victory is taking Paris sooner rather than later, anything that distracts from that is unhelpful so on balance having fewer participants in the war is to the CP's overall benefit by allowing them to throw everything they have at France.
I’m wondering if the Romanians sat out 1916, if that would really mean Falkenhayn wouldn’t be fired and Hindy and Ludy promoted, since Romanian entry was the excuse used to fire Falkenhayn.

That might pull things in a few different directions:

Possibly no submarine unrestricted warfare - good for Entente
Possibly no consequent US entry - bad for Entente
Probably no retreat from forwardmost German lines in the west - possibly good for Entente, bad for Germans if by making battlefield match expectations, French offensive works much better, seen as less futile, suicidal
Possibly no Hindenburg plan for munitions Uber allies, better German ag in 1917 planting season?
 
No Hindenburg is probably a net economic boon but German management of their food supply was pretty poor right from the start, see the Schweinemord fiasco. But making Germany do a better job of fighting a long war isn't the right way because for Germany to win a long war they need to roll a ten sixes in a row because of the economic disparity between the two sides.
 
You're all beating around the bush. Entente's scale of war effort was unsustainable without further American loans for which they ran out of credit. It was only sustained because Congress allow led unsecured loans which only happened because it entered the war on Entente's side. America's critical assistance to the Entente against the Spring Offensive wasn't military it was economic. AEF can replaced by the British troops that it allowed to sent against the Ottoman Empire
I've seen some persons on this forum that the Spring Offensive is destined to fail, but with the US joining ww1 as per OTL can the Germans succeed?
And if the US stays neutral?
You're putting the cart before the horse. Spring Offensive was only launched to prevent American armies from entering France because they would be too numerous to defeat. Without American entry there won't be a Spring Offensive but a better planned offensive with a much weaker Entente.
 
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You're putting the cart before the horse. Spring Offensive was only launched to prevent American armies from entering France because they would be too numerous to defeat. Without American entry there won't be a Summer Offensive but a better planned offensive with a much weaker Entente.
German food stockpiles cannot last much longer. Waiting until summer doesn't make sense.
 
This thread seems to argue yes.
 
@RedSword12 is correct about the Entente not knowing how badly things were going inside the Central Powers but also if the French and British had just sat on the defensive in the west the Germans might have been able to conquer Ukraine much sooner and taking Ukraine in say 1916 would have solved a lot of the CP's problems, a generation later the fact that the Germans got most of the Ukrainian harvest of 1941, all of the harvest of 1942 and much of the harvest of 1943 massively helped them, though because they'd taken France, the other major food surplus region in Europe in 1940 that meant their situation was never that bad.



Yes but it's not a military one. The biggest problem for the CP was that they were net importers of food pre war but by cutting back on luxury crops and livestock and focusing on maximising calorific they might have managed if it wasn't for them being importers of natural fertilisers as well, obviously without fertiliser food production drops. There is an answer to this, using the Haber process to make artifical nitrogen fertiliser, however you also need nitrogen for explosives and in OTL they focused on ammunition, didn't give their farmers enough fertiliser and yields dropped. So if the CP's realise that food is their great weakness and cut back on shell production to focus on fertilisers they would have significantly improved their food situation. The problem with that is without shells they can't conquer Romania or Ukraine. It's a Catch 22, however there is one small window where they could change things. In late 1917 after the Bolshevik coup they absolutely slash shell production (>80%) and go all out for fertilisers they might be able to get enough nitrogen fertiliser together to apply in spring 1918 on their crops to save the 1918 harvest. Meanwhile they cut a deal with the Bolsheviks to get as much of Ukraine as possible and focus all of their military resources on establishing control there so they can start extracting resources ASAP. The combination means they can probably scrape together enough food to keep things going. The problem is the armies facing the British, French and Italians have very little ammunition and we've seen in Ukraine that in practice the results in losing ground and a lot of dead soldiers. So 1918 ends with the CP having just enough food to keep things ticking over with the hope that in the autumn of 1919 they'll get a good crop from Ukraine and be able to improve rations but having lost a lot of ground and soldiers in the West. They still need to use a larger than OTL share of their nitrogen production on fertiliser if they want to avoid another food catastrophe but they will have been able to increase shell production to something like 80% of OTL 1917 levels. Against Britain and France that should be enough to force a compromise peace with Entente gains in the west and CP gains in the east. But if America is in nothing can save them, they steamrolled in the spring of 1919.
Thanks for your response! Really clear and helpful.

On the other hand, had America not join the war, I would think the moral in France would be much lower after 1917 mutiny, and need far longer to recover from. Though one reason of mutiny was indeed America troops didn’t arrive immediately after they declared war, but other factors should lead to a mutiny in 1917 anyway, maybe slightly later. To what extent can this negate the factor of reduced explosive production?
 
@RedSword12 is correct about the Entente not knowing how badly things were going inside the Central Powers but also if the French and British had just sat on the defensive in the west the Germans might have been able to conquer Ukraine much sooner and taking Ukraine in say 1916 would have solved a lot of the CP's problems, a generation later the fact that the Germans got most of the Ukrainian harvest of 1941, all of the harvest of 1942 and much of the harvest of 1943 massively helped them, though because they'd taken France, the other major food surplus region in Europe in 1940 that meant their situation was never that bad.



Yes but it's not a military one. The biggest problem for the CP was that they were net importers of food pre war but by cutting back on luxury crops and livestock and focusing on maximising calorific they might have managed if it wasn't for them being importers of natural fertilisers as well, obviously without fertiliser food production drops. There is an answer to this, using the Haber process to make artifical nitrogen fertiliser, however you also need nitrogen for explosives and in OTL they focused on ammunition, didn't give their farmers enough fertiliser and yields dropped. So if the CP's realise that food is their great weakness and cut back on shell production to focus on fertilisers they would have significantly improved their food situation. The problem with that is without shells they can't conquer Romania or Ukraine. It's a Catch 22, however there is one small window where they could change things. In late 1917 after the Bolshevik coup they absolutely slash shell production (>80%) and go all out for fertilisers they might be able to get enough nitrogen fertiliser together to apply in spring 1918 on their crops to save the 1918 harvest. Meanwhile they cut a deal with the Bolsheviks to get as much of Ukraine as possible and focus all of their military resources on establishing control there so they can start extracting resources ASAP. The combination means they can probably scrape together enough food to keep things going. The problem is the armies facing the British, French and Italians have very little ammunition and we've seen in Ukraine that in practice the results in losing ground and a lot of dead soldiers. So 1918 ends with the CP having just enough food to keep things ticking over with the hope that in the autumn of 1919 they'll get a good crop from Ukraine and be able to improve rations but having lost a lot of ground and soldiers in the West. They still need to use a larger than OTL share of their nitrogen production on fertiliser if they want to avoid another food catastrophe but they will have been able to increase shell production to something like 80% of OTL 1917 levels. Against Britain and France that should be enough to force a compromise peace with Entente gains in the west and CP gains in the east. But if America is in nothing can save them, they steamrolled in the spring of 1919.

What Germany needed was to prevent Ludendorff from taking over, in short, something to save Falkenhayn and Bethmann-Hollweg, preventing the Hindenburg plan and USW.

Romania staying out (waiting a few weeks might have been enlightening and dissuasive) might save Falkenhayn and German agriculture... even prevent USW or just delay the decision enough for a Tsar abdication to offer a better option than USW.

Might mean an earlier Caporetto, no Romania, no point in attacking the Russians... a WORSE Caporetto? Because Michael was conceived out of desperation and recklessness, the Germans knew what attacking on the western front would cost and offered no guarantees on top of that. But even an Italian surrender gives them nothing.

They need to do something, but what?

Now, a waiting Romania might have another effect... Romania joining the CPs in 1917-18, as the scale of the Russian collapse becomes clearer, the possibility of CP post-war reprisals and getting Bessarabia becoming a tantalizing option, IIRC there were a lot of Romanians under Russian rule, it would make sense in a way and might speed things along.

It would still mean less food, though.
 
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You're all beating around the bush. Entente's scale of war effort was unsustainable without further American loans for which they ran out of credit. It was only sustained because Congress allow led unsecured loans which only happened because it entered the war on Entente's side. America's critical assistance to the Entente against the Spring Offensive wasn't military it was economic
Every thread imagining a better German performance in 1918 hits some variation of this point. Understandably. It’s the only possible hint of an equalizer between the two alliances. And it’s a reasonable point to push. But to steal a line from one of the many adaptations of Murder on the Orient Express: “it suffers only from the defect of not being factual”. Or at least, not completely so.

For starters, though American production was certainly an important adjunct to that produced by the Entente directly the Entente out produced the CP in basically every category even without American production. So a cut off of American production would not be enough to overcome the deficit that Germany faced against the British and French.

Second, American finance was used to purchase American goods. Mostly (at least by dollar value) manufactured goods. The lack of it would mean a lack of ability to purchase in America, but would not hamper purchases within the British Empire or in other neutrals. Don’t get me wrong, the loss of American materials would be keenly felt. But it would bot be likely to overcome German disadvantage.

Third, the Entente situation was not quite as bad as it is sometimes made out to be. What is usually referenced in this regard is the statement by Chancellor of the Exchequer Reginald McKenna in late 1916 that Britain could not continue purchases for long. This statement needs a bit of nuance. Of the $4 Billion in US denominated securities (useful for securing loans in the US) only $1.5 billion has been gathered by the government to that point. McKenna was an ideological liberal Chancellor under an equally ideologically liberal PM. At this stage in time that meant a commitment to volunteerism and a distaste for conscription of either men or finance. So what McKenna meant was that they could not continue purchase at current rate without resorting to measures that were ideologically unacceptable to the Liberal leaders. A few weeks later Lloyd-George launched his coup and Asquith and McKenna were out. By January new sequestration measures had been launched to gather more securities. In addition, at least one of the several classes of banks existant in the UK at the time had become basically inert due to the circumstances of the war. Yet their gold deposits were also untapped. The Securities alone would have kept Entente imports from the U.S. flowing well into 1918 at minimum. Helped along by the fact that the French had negotiated a large loan prior to Wilson’s attempts to pressure the Entente through the Fed. This would have got them through to late spring 1918 without requiring any further security (which was handled by London anyway).

And finally, Wilson’s instructions to the Fed had a specific purpose. Wilson was determined that the US be the arbiter of the peace settlement and of the new world order that would arise. Through mid and late 1916 the Germans had been more amenable to Wilson’s attempts at mediation. At least partially due to Falkenhayn recognizing that victory was not possible and a political solution was required, which he communicated to his government. With this opening Wilson needed to try and pressure the Entente to also come to the table. Hence the instructions to the Fed (against the wishes of Reserve leadership) to move against Entente lending. However, Falkenhayn’s replacement with the more optimistic Hindenburg and Ludendorff, and the slow progress of the negotiations with the US due to the coming American election caused a breakdown in German-American relations. The diplomatic situation was already deteriorating by late November. The intention of Wilson’s actions was to force a settlement on both sides. It was very much not to aid the German war effort, as the US generally supported the Entente cause and was much more closely tied to it. If Wilson’s actions appeared to be shutting off Entente trade with the US entirely (hurting the American economy) and improving Germany’s chances, it would be an own goal on his part to not soften his stance on Entente lending.

You're putting the cart before the horse. Spring Offensive was only launched to prevent American armies from entering France because they would be too numerous to defeat. Without American entry there won't be a Spring Offensive but a better planned offensive with a much weaker Entente.
Not necessarily . Germany could not outlast or outspend the Entente. They knew that. Their whole strategy was to knock one of the opponents out of the war to focus on the other. By 1918 this had seemed to pay off with Russia. The next obvious objective is to either sue for peace with the remainder or try and enforce one. The parties in place in 1918 seem unlikely to be willing to give up enough to make the first possible. So the only option is to try and enforce a peace using the recently freed up eastern troops. Which would basically be what happened. IOTL the German attack effectively spoiled a planned Entente attack in late spring/early summer. If the Germans wait to launch their own attack they may actually be spoiled in tern.

It’s also probably incorrect to say that the failures of the Spring Offensive were due to the need to rush it before American troops arrived. Some of those can be put on its architect, some on the tendency of the German staff to favour objectives over logistical reality. I think the bulk of the blame, however, has to rest on the general impossibility of the concept. The German Army simply could not move far enough, fast enough, and still be capable enough of combat at the end of it to achieve anything like the decisive result they needed. It’s unlikely even the Entente armies with a much more robust tail, could have done so.
 
The Entente being cut off by America=CP Victory is as you say massively simplistic and factually unsound. An Entente that is solely dependent on their own (larger) resources takes them to where the CP has been since September 1914 but with larger pre war economies.
 
The Entente being cut off by America=CP Victory is as you say massively simplistic and factually unsound. An Entente that is solely dependent on their own (larger) resources takes them to where the CP has been since September 1914 but with larger pre war economies.
They also weren't importing food as much as Germany did and could rely on their massive colonial empires for many resources.
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Let's say @Thoresby and @ArtosStark and @EasternRomanEmpire are right, and Germany is running out of time because of the ever-tightening blockade (and it ever-tightens enough whether or not the USA joins the war or not), the spring 1918 offensive is needed to beat the clock, but the spring offensive won't work because it is technically infeasible, and that remains true, with or without US forces in the war and US unsecured loans and commodities they pay for.

With effectively translates into, the Entente actually won the war at some point in 1915 or 1916 by Germany failing to win in those years, and since then it was all over but the shouting, fighting and dying. And German inability to win by 1915 or 1916 was prejudiced by not winning at the Marne or perhaps at least the Race to the Sea, plus Austria-Hungary's early really bad start in 1914.

So, bringing this all back to a version of the war in 1917 and 1918 *without the USA* as a belligerent against Germany alongside the Entente, Germany can't win and can't fight much longer so it will lose.

Exactly when @Thoresby, @ArtosStark, and @EasternRomanEmpire do you think Germany would be forced to acknowledge its loss, sue for peace, and capitulate, and exactly what armistice terms would it be forced to accept when it happens in terms of their harshness and degree of rendering Germany even more militarily helpless? IE, would the armistice terms match those of Nov 11, 1918 OTL in severity, be less stringent, or more stringent? And how would that in turn affect the punitiveness of the peace terms?

I think even with taking Entente victory and German defeat as a given outcome, examining the impact of this happening, and peace being dictated, with the USA never having been a belligerent power, is an interesting speculative exercise.

Many people somehow have a presumption that the United States influenced things in OTL to soften the armistice or the peace. I'm not sure that is entirely "true" much as anything can be true compared to a pure counterfactual, and would want to see someone saying so "show their work" of why it would be so.
 
Let's say @Thoresby and @ArtosStark and @EasternRomanEmpire are right, and Germany is running out of time because of the ever-tightening blockade (and it ever-tightens enough whether or not the USA joins the war or not), the spring 1918 offensive is needed to beat the clock, but the spring offensive won't work because it is technically infeasible, and that remains true, with or without US forces in the war and US unsecured loans and commodities they pay for.

With effectively translates into, the Entente actually won the war at some point in 1915 or 1916 by Germany failing to win in those years, and since then it was all over but the shouting, fighting and dying. And German inability to win by 1915 or 1916 was prejudiced by not winning at the Marne or perhaps at least the Race to the Sea, plus Austria-Hungary's early really bad start in 1914.

So, bringing this all back to a version of the war in 1917 and 1918 *without the USA* as a belligerent against Germany alongside the Entente, Germany can't win and can't fight much longer so it will lose.
It's not that it's impossible it wins without US entry in the war, with a few PODs you could make Germany win but it's not the most likely outcome.
Exactly when @Thoresby, @ArtosStark, and @EasternRomanEmpire do you think Germany would be forced to acknowledge its loss, sue for peace, and capitulate, and exactly what armistice terms would it be forced to accept when it happens in terms of their harshness and degree of rendering Germany even more militarily helpless? IE, would the armistice terms match those of Nov 11, 1918 OTL in severity, be less stringent, or more stringent? And how would that in turn affect the punitiveness of the peace terms?
They surrender around the same time as OTL, the Germans are starving around the same time as OTL and cannot continue like this forever, so somewhere in Autumn 1918.
For the peace deal, I don't see why it would be lighter, if anything it's harsher since France and Britain had to suffer more, and France is proportionately more important at the negotiating table.
I think even with taking Entente victory and German defeat as a given outcome, examining the impact of this happening, and peace being dictated, with the USA never having been a belligerent power, is an interesting speculative exercise.
Biggest change is there are no fourteen points, changing a good part of the 20th century, no League of Nations, no right of self-determination etc.
Many people somehow have a presumption that the United States influenced things in OTL to soften the armistice or the peace. I'm not sure that is entirely "true" much as anything can be true compared to a pure counterfactual, and would want to see someone saying so "show their work" of why it would be so.
I don't think the US made the peace deals lighter, they did quite literally nothing to prevent the French from punishing the Germans and the fourteen points were applied very flexibly to favor the Entente's will*, if anything they made the peace deals on Austria and Hungary harsher.

*When the Entente carves up the ME, give Danzig to the Poles etc. they weren't exactly applied.
 
Let's say @Thoresby and @ArtosStark and @EasternRomanEmpire are right, and Germany is running out of time because of the ever-tightening blockade (and it ever-tightens enough whether or not the USA joins the war or not), the spring 1918 offensive is needed to beat the clock, but the spring offensive won't work because it is technically infeasible, and that remains true, with or without US forces in the war and US unsecured loans and commodities they pay for.

With effectively translates into, the Entente actually won the war at some point in 1915 or 1916 by Germany failing to win in those years, and since then it was all over but the shouting, fighting and dying. And German inability to win by 1915 or 1916 was prejudiced by not winning at the Marne or perhaps at least the Race to the Sea, plus Austria-Hungary's early really bad start in 1914.

So, bringing this all back to a version of the war in 1917 and 1918 *without the USA* as a belligerent against Germany alongside the Entente, Germany can't win and can't fight much longer so it will lose.

I wouldn't quite say that. With the decisions the Germans had made in how to run their war economy and the nature of the Russian collapse the hard deadline of Christmas 1918 was programmed in by Christmas 1917, better military decisions and results in 1918 can't generate the millions of tons of food needed. But that Christmas 1918 deadline can be extended with increasing ease the earlier you put your PoD, taking Ukraine intact and with a functioning rail network for instance solves a large percentage of the CP's problems.

Exactly when @Thoresby, @ArtosStark, and @EasternRomanEmpire do you think Germany would be forced to acknowledge its loss, sue for peace, and capitulate, and exactly what armistice terms would it be forced to accept when it happens in terms of their harshness and degree of rendering Germany even more militarily helpless? IE, would the armistice terms match those of Nov 11, 1918 OTL in severity, be less stringent, or more stringent? And how would that in turn affect the punitiveness of the peace terms?

I think even with taking Entente victory and German defeat as a given outcome, examining the impact of this happening, and peace being dictated, with the USA never having been a belligerent power, is an interesting speculative exercise.

Many people somehow have a presumption that the United States influenced things in OTL to soften the armistice or the peace. I'm not sure that is entirely "true" much as anything can be true compared to a pure counterfactual, and would want to see someone saying so "show their work" of why it would be so.

With no US entry the fighting ends in the October-December 1918 depending on butterflies and without Wilson I suspect the treaty is harsher but more conservative. i.e. larger reparations, but fewer border adjustments.
 
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