Darkness before Dawn - Purple Phoenix 1416

[Nuraghe]

I'd personally go with Rhomaioi as for how the people refer to themselves and use Empire of the Romans/Eastern Roman Empire as the term foreign nations use. Just my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for the input, I do find Rhomaioi and Rhomaion more appropriate for the specific historical enviroment that this story is taking place.

Personally looking at what happened in Otl, I believe that probably within the state territories, the title of Roman Empire will remain, abroad in official communications with the Catholic powers it will probably be something similar to Rhomania ( given that even the Latin Empire, it was called that by the crusaders, it's also Venice and Genoa had no problem defining those regions with that term ) or the Constantinopolitan / Byzantine Empire ( in cases where relations were to break down or get worse in the future ) for the rest I hardly see the Latin powers recognizing Constantinople as the true and legitimate Rome (1), when for them it already exists the Pope and HRE who hold this role


1) given that I think it unlikely that anyone of the time could actually conceive that both visions ( of romanitas ) are equally legitimate ( I'm talking about the claim of Papal Rome and Byzantium to the exclusive use of the term Romans ), is that they are so different from each other, only due to a normal evolution that has distanced them over the centuries

@elerosse, I personally think that your last chapter is a small masterpiece, given that while I was reading about the last moments of Mehmed I's life, I was moved, because you managed to make these characters come alive and make me feel empathy with them, Chapeau, very curious to see what you have in store for us in the future, I'm sure you will manage to surprise me, my heartfelt congratulations again


PS

I am extremely curious to see how Constantinople will deal with the Italian Renaissance ( which had already largely begun in the previous century ( and which was mainly based on the " rediscovery " of Latin classics little known or non considered in past ages ) and which I believe will benefit more from the survival of the Byzantine Empire, and will therefore be even more surprising than in Otl )

my little curiosity, in case one of the young Paleologos were to visit the Urbe in the future, how funny would it be if he ended up being elevated to the rank of Roman senator / patrician ( yes the institution of the senate had not disappeared completely, it for centuries the SPQR ( composed of the ancient local aristocratic families, such as the Colonna, Orsini and Sabelli ) was an enormous counter-power to the papal government and was at the basis of the clashes which then led to the slap of Anagni, the Avignon captivity and finally to the Western Schism ) it would have something funny and even poetic about it

 

[elerosse]

Personally looking at what happened in Otl, I believe that probably within the state territories, the title of Roman Empire will remain, abroad in official communications with the Catholic powers it will probably be something similar to Rhomania ( given that even the Latin Empire, it was called that by the crusaders, it's also Venice and Genoa had no problem defining those regions with that term ) or the Constantinopolitan / Byzantine Empire ( in cases where relations were to break down or get worse in the future ) for the rest I hardly see the Latin powers recognizing Constantinople as the true and legitimate Rome (1), when for them it already exists the Pope and HRE who hold this role


1) given that I think it unlikely that anyone could actually conceive that both visions ( of romanitas ) are equally legitimate ( I'm talking about the claim of Papal Rome and Byzantium to the exclusive use of the term Romans ), is that they are so different from each other, only due to a normal evolution that has distanced them over the centuries

@elerosse, I personally think that your last chapter is a small masterpiece, given that while I was reading about the last moments of Mehmed I's life, I was moved, because you managed to make these characters come alive and make me feel empathy with them, Chapeau, very curious to see what you have in store for us in the future, I'm sure you will manage to surprise me, my heartfelt congratulations again


PS

I am extremely curious to see how Constantinople will deal with the Italian Renaissance ( which had already largely begun in the previous century ( and which was mainly based on the " rediscovery " of Latin classics little known or non considered in past ages ) and which I believe will benefit more from the survival of the Byzantine Empire, and will therefore be even more surprising than in Otl )

my little curiosity, in case one of the young Paleologos were to visit the Urbe in the future, how funny would it be if he ended up being elevated to the rank of Roman senator / patrician ( yes the institution of the senate had not disappeared completely, it for centuries the SPQR ( composed of the ancient local aristocratic families, such as the Colonna, Orsini and Sabelli ) was an enormous counter-power to the papal government and was at the basis of the clashes which then led to the slap of Anagni, the Avignon captivity and finally to the Western Schism ) it would have something funny and even poetic about it

Great suggestion, Rhomania would be a neutral term to be used by the Latin Church, and the Western European without the connotation of the Roman Empire.

Great to hear you liked the last Chapter. Writting that chapter, I had indeed tried to put my self into the shoes of Mehmed, and what a turbulent and troubled life he's had. Going forward, I'll try my best to give a human touch to personal moments such as the last day of Mehmed.

The Italian Renaissance, and the Italian political landscape will divert rather drastically compared to OTL - as a Rhomania that had regained its footing is much more involved/interested in Italian affairs compared to the Ottomans.

You actually gave me an idea, a Paleologoi Patrician in Rome, something like that could happen later when the Rhomaioi really starts meddling with Italian politics.

 

[Nuraghe]

Great suggestion, Rhomania would be a neutral term to be used by the Latin Church, and the Western European without the connotation of the Roman Empire.

Great to hear you liked the last Chapter. Writting that chapter, I had indeed tried to put my self into the shoes of Mehmed, and what a turbulent and troubled life he's had. Going forward, I'll try my best to give a human touch to personal moments such as the last day of Mehmed.

The Italian Renaissance, and the Italian political landscape will divert rather drastically compared to OTL - as a Rhomania that had regained its footing is much more involved/interested in Italian affairs compared to the Ottomans.

You actually gave me an idea, a Paleologoi Patrician in Rome, something like that could happen later when the Rhomaioi really starts meddling with Italian politics.

I easily imagined that Byzantium would be considerably more involved in the political affairs of Italy than the Ottomans in Otl (although few know, that the sultans had roles ( albeit background) very relevant to Italian history between the 15th and 16th centuries ) given who should not run the risk of undergoing a crusade every 2 seconds, furthermore with the participation in Council of Constance, I can easily imagine imperial representatives in the same Roman curia ( either as diplomats or cardinals ) and considering the Lombard wars on the horizon and the presence of the Paleologos of Monferrato, it comes naturally to me to imagine Constantinople involved in Italy ( even if only to prevent a power hostile to it from taking control of the most important states of the peninsula ) especially because the opportunities are vast ( I am certainly not suggesting a permanent return of the imperial government on site, but some small tricks to increase its influence certainly are ( or the creation of a small fief / duchy for a dynastic cadet, in Aragonese style or following the example of Theodore I in Otl )

 

[elerosse]

I easily imagined that Byzantium would be considerably more involved in the political affairs of Italy than the Ottomans in Otl (although few know, that the sultans had roles ( albeit background) very relevant to Italian history between the 15th and 16th centuries ) given who should not run the risk of undergoing a crusade every 2 seconds, furthermore with the participation in Council of Constance, I can easily imagine imperial representatives in the same Roman curia ( either as diplomats or cardinals ) and considering the Lombard wars on the horizon and the presence of the Paleologos of Monferrato, it comes naturally to me to imagine Constantinople involved in Italy ( even if only to prevent a power hostile to it from taking control of the most important states of the peninsula ) especially because the opportunities are vast ( I am certainly not suggesting a permanent return of the imperial government on site, but some small tricks to increase its influence certainly are ( or the creation of a small fief / duchy for a dynastic cadet, in Aragonese style or following the example of Theodore I in Otl )

Yes, I was thinking of the Greko population in southern Italy, the Papal affairs as the aftermath of Council of Konstanz and the potential reunification of the churches, the business relationship with the merchant republics ie. Genoa, Venice,, Pisa etc., coupled with existing cadet branch of Paleologos house in Monferrat, it all lead to increased Rhomaio involvement in Italian affais. It will be a very interesting divergence - which I'm only having broad designs in mind.

I am therefore very interested in hearing people's take on what change Rhomaioi involvement in Lombardy Wars, the succession crisis in Naples and Two Sicilies, and the broader Italian Wars woould bring about.

 

[Nuraghe]

Yes, I was thinking of the Greko population in southern Italy, the Papal affairs as the aftermath of Council of Konstanz and the potential reunification of the churches, the business relationship with the merchant republics ie. Genoa, Venice,, Pisa etc., coupled with existing cadet branch of Paleologos house in Monferrat, it all lead to increased Rhomaio involvement in Italian affais. It will be a very interesting divergence - which I'm only having broad designs in mind.

I am therefore very interested in hearing people's take on what change Rhomaioi involvement in Lombardy Wars, the succession crisis in Naples and Two Sicilies, and the broader Italian Wars woould bring about.

as far as the Greek-speaking minority in southern Italy is concerned, at the time it was truly negligible compared to the 13th century ( where it was already largely in decline ) , so apart from protecting its survival, I don't see Rhomania wasting important resources in this area, I think that Byzantium will have more interest in the issue between the Aragonese and French for Naples and the Milanese succession ( a place in which Sigismondo is also fully involved ( in anti-Venetian function, given that she was his main opponent to his Romzung at least until 1431s ) as well as Venice, given that the clash was centered on the control of the cities of Bergamo, Lodi, Cremona, Brescia and even Mantua ( coveted by Venice, but which would make it the undisputed master of north-eastern Italy, heavily weakening Milan ( 1 ) and of the papal legations ( today's Romagna, Marche and Umbria, which at the moment are extremely fragmented into small entities ( 2 ) technically the Italian Wars depend on a series of extremely complex factors and causes which may not even occur in this TL ( since they are all after 1470 onwards ) especially if we have a pod that modifies history almost 5 decades in advance, now obviously France had already intervened in Italy during the Lombard wars ( in particular to weaken Alfonso, help the Sforza and obtain Asti for the Orleans ( which is a very important stronghold for controlling access to Genoa, Emilia and Tuscany, as well as threatening Monferrato and Savoy ) without obviously forgetting how you have already pointed out, the participation in the main events of the Latin Church in this period


Well, unfortunately as far as Pisa is concerned, it has fallen under the control of Florence for at least 14 years at the moment, so I hardly see it becoming autonomous again, barring any total victory of the Milanese alliance against Venice ( with Siena and Lucca asking Florence to free it , but it would be an extremely fortuitous and temporary case, given that upon the first defeat of Siena ( its main protector ), Pisa would quickly be reoccupied by Florence )


1 ) above all because the Serenissima wanted to protect its new conquests on the mainland ( Verona, Padua, Aquileia and parts of eastern Lombardy in 1410s ) from a possible aggression from the west, therefore sensing the political weakness of the last Visconti duke, they decided to start the conflict, strong of the motto " the best defense is the attack ", without forgetting that the Savoys also had ambitions against the Milanese possessions in Piedmont, in particular Vercelli

2 ) with the main disputed cities being Rimini, Forlì, Bologna, Imola, Ravenna, Faenza were not only disputed between Milan, Venice and Rome, but also by Florence and Naples ( in particular Alfonso V, who wanted to create a fiefdom in the area for his younger son ) as well as seeing the birth of the very heated rivalry between the Malatesta and the Montefeltro

P.s
but if you want to talk about it in particular, we can do it in a private discussion

 

[Nuraghe]

as far as the Greek-speaking minority in southern Italy is concerned, at the time it was truly negligible compared to the 13th century ( where it was already largely in decline ) , so apart from protecting its survival, I don't see Rhomania wasting important resources in this area, I think that Byzantium will have more interest in the issue between the Aragonese and French for Naples and the Milanese succession ( a place in which Sigismondo is also fully involved ( in anti-Venetian function, given that she was his main opponent to his Romzung at least until 1431s ) as well as Venice, given that the clash was centered on the control of the cities of Bergamo, Lodi, Cremona, Brescia and even Mantua ( coveted by Venice, but which would make it the undisputed master of north-eastern Italy, heavily weakening Milan ( 1 ) and of the papal legations ( today's Romagna, Marche and Umbria, which at the moment are extremely fragmented into small entities ( 2 ) technically the Italian Wars depend on a series of extremely complex factors and causes which may not even occur in this TL ( since they are all after 1470 onwards ) especially if we have a pod that modifies history almost 5 decades in advance, now obviously France had already intervened in Italy during the Lombard wars ( in particular to weaken Alfonso, help the Sforza and obtain Asti for the Orleans ( which is a very important stronghold for controlling access to Genoa, Emilia and Tuscany, as well as threatening Monferrato and Savoy ) without obviously forgetting how you have already pointed out, the participation in the main events of the Latin Church in this period


Well, unfortunately as far as Pisa is concerned, it has fallen under the control of Florence for at least 14 years at the moment, so I hardly see it becoming autonomous again, barring any total victory of the Milanese alliance against Venice ( with Siena and Lucca asking Florence to free it , but it would be an extremely fortuitous and temporary case, given that upon the first defeat of Siena ( its main protector ), Pisa would quickly be reoccupied by Florence )


1 ) above all because the Serenissima wanted to protect its new conquests on the mainland ( Verona, Padua, Aquileia and parts of eastern Lombardy in 1410s ) from a possible aggression from the west, therefore sensing the political weakness of the last Visconti duke, they decided to start the conflict, strong of the motto " the best defense is the attack ", without forgetting that the Savoys also had ambitions against the Milanese possessions in Piedmont, in particular Vercelli

2 ) with the main disputed cities being Rimini, Forlì, Bologna, Imola, Ravenna, Faenza were not only disputed between Milan, Venice and Rome, but also by Florence and Naples ( in particular Alfonso V, who wanted to create a fiefdom in the area for his younger son ) as well as seeing the birth of the very heated rivalry between the Malatesta and the Montefeltro

P.s
but if you want to talk about it in particular, we can do it in a private discussion

Furthermore, to integrate the issue of the Italian wars, in Otl they were triggered by constant pressure on the delicate balance formed with the Peace of Lodi in 1454, between the 5 great regional powers ( Milan, Venice, Rome, Florence and Naples ) and by the crossed ambitions of said powers ( in Romagna ), which increased the feeling of mutual distrust ( as well as increasing the desire for revenge of the other Italian actors who saw themselves slowly excluded from the politics that matters, and began to feel more like sacrificial lambs than as their equals ( I mean of the 5 large ) which drastically increased mutual distrust, also because the great powers of Europe interfered in this delicate balance ( first diplomatically, then militarily ), in particular France, Burgundy, the Iberian kingdoms, HRE ( at the request of the Italian actors ( minor and otherwise ) in particular of Rome, as guarantor of peace and possible counterbalance of the frightening Parisian ambitions ) and even England, Hungary and the Ottomans played their role in the affair albeit more nuanced ( for various internal reasons ) and by the dynastic ambitions of some pontiffs ( first of all Sixtus IV and his nephews Riario - Della Rovere, who were the main actors in undermining the laborious peace achieved with the Italian league, and who were an example for the subsequent attempts of the various Popes ( like the Borgia, Medici and Farnese famlies (1)



1 ) even if it must be said that if Rodrigo had succeeded in his intention, allowing Cesare to consolidate his new dynastic dominion, we would have seen an important part of the conflict disappear, namely the fight for the control of Romagna ( a strategic region, which is located at the center of the main Italian powers ) which would be unified into a single power capable of equaling the other regional players, allowing the creation of a new balance, which in any case partly happened with the diplomatic success of Paul III, in convincing Charles V to grant Parma as a fief to his family, and at the same time support the consolidation of the State of the Church in Romagna, so as to limit the regions contested by the participants in the conflict ( even if the problem of how to resolve the conflict between France and Spain, for Naples and later Milan )