Sequel de Mayo (Cinco de Mayo, Vol. II)

[naraht]

Its government would be a mixture of Lebanon and Switzerland OTL

Wow that would be Blursed.

 

[JustInThePhilippines]

Wow that would be Blursed.

This is just my idea and it depends on the Author

Executive: Ala Swiss Federal Council OTL. Rotating between the five tribes

Legistative: Bi or uni (I can see a upper House of Elders Ala OTL Somaliland House of Elders representing tribal leaders and a democratically elected House of Representatives)

Judiciary: Independent or like OTL Iran Guardian Council where the upper house is also the Supreme Court

Local Government: Sequoyah is divided into five nations (basically like US States) that fit tribal boundaries and a carveout state as per Kansas City

 

[DanMcCollum]

This is just my idea and it depends on the Author

Executive: Ala Swiss Federal Council OTL. Rotating between the five tribes

Legistative: Bi or uni (I can see a upper House of Elders Ala OTL Somaliland House of Elders representing tribal leaders and a democratically elected House of Representatives)

Judiciary: Independent or like OTL Iran Guardian Council where the upper house is also the Supreme Court

Local Government: Sequoyah is divided into five nations (basically like US States) that fit tribal boundaries and a carveout state as per Kansas City

A lot of it is going to depend on how the Indian Territory's government develops during the Confederate period. Prior to the Civil War there was never an Organic Act which established a formal Indian Territory government - each tribe was alloted land and largely left to its own devices. Although I'm sure this suited the leaders of many tribes well (the less people mucking in their internal affairs the better, they'd figure) I suspect that during the Confederate era, there would have been a need for a more structured governmental apparatus to take form. First the Indian Territory is now a semi-autonomous state in its own right (which, I believe, had the right to send non-voting representatives to the Confederate Congress), second, it is accepting a large number of native refugees from the Union into its borders, and third, said Union is hardly that friendly and there would likely be a need to develop a government to help protect the erritorial integrity of the Territory.

Should a fairly stable government have developed in the Territory, the chances are good that for continuity's sake, this would become the general structure of the government of Seqouya as well - with minor tweaks. But what would it look like? We can look to OTL for some inspiration - following the Civil War the Union government reorganized the Indian Territory so that it had a unicarmal legislature with proportional representation based on the population of the individual tribe. Also, we can look at the proposed constitution of the State of Seqouyah (which went on to greatly influence the constitution of Oklahoma as well).

What seems likely is that we'd end up with proportional representation based on the population of tribes, as per OTL. There would also need to be representation for the tribes who fled to the Territory as refugees as a result of the harsher Indian Wars in the United States - whether these refugees would be maintain their own tribal allegiance or be grouped together into a new tribe, would probably be determined by the numbers and strength of the group. The government would be federal, with each tribe maintaining a fair amount of power in administering its own people, but the legislature would be allowed to pass laws which governed the whole territory. I'm not sure if the CS government would have appointed a governor for the Territory or if the population would be able to elect their own. If the prior, I suspect the Governorship would be significantly weaker (in fact, if not in theory). If the later, the position of governor probably has some real teeth, but was likely limited to either a single, or two, two year term; no tribe is going to want to see another tribe *cough*Looking at you Cherokee*cough* dominate the governorship, and so maintaining a steady turnover of executives is a good way to nudge the position into being open to all tribes. Whether that theory would translate to reality is, of course, another question entirely. Furthermore, this is an era of populist thought and agitation, and no one is going to want to see power concentrated into the hands of a strong executive.

So, following independence, we most likely see a government that looks like the following:

At the top, you have the *President. This position would be sure to get a native name (Ugvwiyuhi? I think that's the work for leader of a state, but please correct me if I'm mistaken!). He would likely serve either two, two-year terms, or be limited to a single four year term. I suspect, after independence, they'd want a leader to stick around for more than two years. My gut tells me, this position would be inspired by the Confederate Presidency than the American one - so, Commander in Chief and all the good stuff, but largely hemmed in by convention. On a side note, I could see the Union wanting a strong executive for Seqouyah so they have a figure they an negotiate with/dictate to. Whether they get what they want is another matter, however.

A strong unicarmal legislature, where each tribe (and remember, because of the refugees, there are more than five now) is granted proportional legislation based on population. This is the real power in the government, and I'd imagine that the *Speaker (don't have a good native name for the position) being a very powerful position.

Below this, you'd have the individual tribes which would maintain a fair bit of autonomy - perhaps more than Union states; though this may deminish over time due to the practical realities of being a sovereign nation.

Furthermore, I suspect that the language of government will be Cherokee and English, but with a strong emphasis on supporting the prior and phasing out the later.

What's also interesting is the identity of this nation - it didn't win its independence through a glorious struggle like many others, which the people can hang their hats upon. Instead, they received it after being on the losing side of a conflict. And I think that that is going to have some interesting effects - Seqouyah Nationalism is going to be a very real thing (though there will be efforts to put an emphasis on loyalty to Seqouyah and NOT simply to one's tribe) but it's national mythology is going to be ... complicated.

 

[KingSweden24]

Damn
Spoiler alert.
Emperor of Austria flees into exile in Mexico.

Holy crap!
To see how this turns out,

I've tipped my hand on this previously

That 1932 election will be so low energy haha. On the one hand, you have Pershing, War Hero, who's running a personalist and fairly substance-free, forward-thinking campaign. He'll be the heavy favorite after 12 years of Democrats in the Not White House so it is a smart strategy for him and his team to not get bogged down in policy specifics and just campaign on the fact that he's John F'ing Pershing, beloved general.

I'm not sure if Pershing will explicitly say he's a one-term guy - seems like a bad idea to assign yourself lame duck status right away - but if even if he doesn't come out and say he's one-and-done it will be at the least pretty implied. So every Dem worth a damn will look at 1932, realize the Pershing juggernaut is a one election phenomenon, and sit out and wait til 1936, when it will most likely be a lot easier to run against Pershing's successor is as opposed to the general himself.

So, on the one side you have a septuagenarian Pershing going out and campaigning on very little specifics, and on the other hand you have a third-string (at best) Democrat who's biggest concern on the campaign trail is making sure the party doesn't get wiped out downballot. Sure, the Dem will campaign on boilerplate issues and vice versa, and the partisan press will bleat and wail, but everyone involved knows Pershing is marching to the Presidency so why bother getting all worked up in a lather about it? 1936 is the real fight here.

Much like Ike, in that sense, though Ike didn't telegraph a single term, I don't believe (especially since there was less precedent for it, as there would be for Pershing what with at least Hughes and Root)

At the same time that argument could be flipped to work for annexation: “if they are gonna dictate our policy, we should be able to at least vote in their elections” or something like that.

That scenario also assumes that Argentina would wait for the situation to turn bitter instead of scheduling the referendum right after the Brazilians are kicked out, which would be the logical thing.

I do think that the debate between Uruguayan exiles and resistance would be very much a tossup between the two, and I’m sure there will also be some socialists or other kinds of revolutionaries thrown into the mix, but with Argentina calling the shots, it’d be an uphill battle for the rest.

That's very true

You know, the thought has struck me: With Canada getting less migrations as OTL, as well as the different state of affairs in Europe and further afield, mixed with far more stable governments in Mexico and Argentina ... I suspect we're seeing more immigration to Latin American states than in OTL. Any ideas of what the numbers are and what that immigration experience is like?
Interestingly, I recently learned from a fellow PhD student (because it's what she was studying!) there was considerable Scottish immigration to Chile during this time as they came as engineers to work in the mining industry. Obviously, I suspect that that won't be occuring here thanks to Peru's lackluster performance in the war, harsh treaty and political instability.

Argentina, as Canada South basically, gets a lot of this benefit, but recall that Mexico made immigration very easy under Max, and the thing that would make it slightly less attractive to Europeans is its more tropical climate compared even to the US South (which wasn't exactly some magnet for immigrants early on to begin with).

I think Sequoya will be a country dominated by agriculture , leisure and petroleum based businesses that are owned by the various tribes. Some of the tribes will use the money to build infrastructure, health care and education for their members, others may be dominated by a class of senior leaders. Much of the working class will be 'guest workers' from across North America and abroad who may be paid well but are restricted to certain parts of cities and the countries and watched by the local police. It would be a combination of Dubai and Las Vegas.

The inability for non-tribe members to own land/property outside of certain delineated "reserve" areas definitely limits the attractiveness of Sequoyah as a place to migrate to permanently, though I'd argue that it could be very appealing for a young, single guy - especially from, say, the CSA - to go work there a few years in the oil fields or in ranching/farming, make some serious money, and move home with it.
But the Dubai comparison is apt, at least in terms of its reliance on guest workers and remittances.

I wonder if some degree of women's enfranchisement could occur during Chamberlains prime ministership from 1917-1923/4?

I mean his father brought universal suffrage for men so it would be fitting he does the same for women.

"Addressing the Fast Worcestershire Women's Unionist Association yesterday, Mr. Austen Chamberlain said he was not in favour of women’s suffrage, and did not believe the great mass of women ..."
Guernsey Evening Press and Star- 12 June 1908

ITTL though I can see Austin supporting limited suffrage for women to appease the left and it's already established that he doesn't have the conviction as his father so I can him being swayed.

In general, I don't think it's the highest priority at the moment considering Ireland and India and the author foreshadowed the conservative, reactionary politics of 1920s Britain under Jix and I would bet that universal women suffrage would not be implemented until the 1930s

Ironically enough, Jix was one of the most devoted partisans of women's suffrage in OTL Britain at this time; it wasn't an issue that cut cleanly on the Liberal-Tory spectrum

Its government would be a mixture of Lebanon and Switzerland OTL

Yikes haha

This is just my idea and it depends on the Author

Executive: Ala Swiss Federal Council OTL. Rotating between the five tribes

Legistative: Bi or uni (I can see a upper House of Elders Ala OTL Somaliland House of Elders representing tribal leaders and a democratically elected House of Representatives)

Judiciary: Independent or like OTL Iran Guardian Council where the upper house is also the Supreme Court

Local Government: Sequoyah is divided into five nations (basically like US States) that fit tribal boundaries and a carveout state as per Kansas City

A lot of it is going to depend on how the Indian Territory's government develops during the Confederate period. Prior to the Civil War there was never an Organic Act which established a formal Indian Territory government - each tribe was alloted land and largely left to its own devices. Although I'm sure this suited the leaders of many tribes well (the less people mucking in their internal affairs the better, they'd figure) I suspect that during the Confederate era, there would have been a need for a more structured governmental apparatus to take form. First the Indian Territory is now a semi-autonomous state in its own right (which, I believe, had the right to send non-voting representatives to the Confederate Congress), second, it is accepting a large number of native refugees from the Union into its borders, and third, said Union is hardly that friendly and there would likely be a need to develop a government to help protect the erritorial integrity of the Territory.

Should a fairly stable government have developed in the Territory, the chances are good that for continuity's sake, this would become the general structure of the government of Seqouya as well - with minor tweaks. But what would it look like? We can look to OTL for some inspiration - following the Civil War the Union government reorganized the Indian Territory so that it had a unicarmal legislature with proportional representation based on the population of the individual tribe. Also, we can look at the proposed constitution of the State of Seqouyah (which went on to greatly influence the constitution of Oklahoma as well).

What seems likely is that we'd end up with proportional representation based on the population of tribes, as per OTL. There would also need to be representation for the tribes who fled to the Territory as refugees as a result of the harsher Indian Wars in the United States - whether these refugees would be maintain their own tribal allegiance or be grouped together into a new tribe, would probably be determined by the numbers and strength of the group. The government would be federal, with each tribe maintaining a fair amount of power in administering its own people, but the legislature would be allowed to pass laws which governed the whole territory. I'm not sure if the CS government would have appointed a governor for the Territory or if the population would be able to elect their own. If the prior, I suspect the Governorship would be significantly weaker (in fact, if not in theory). If the later, the position of governor probably has some real teeth, but was likely limited to either a single, or two, two year term; no tribe is going to want to see another tribe *cough*Looking at you Cherokee*cough* dominate the governorship, and so maintaining a steady turnover of executives is a good way to nudge the position into being open to all tribes. Whether that theory would translate to reality is, of course, another question entirely. Furthermore, this is an era of populist thought and agitation, and no one is going to want to see power concentrated into the hands of a strong executive.

So, following independence, we most likely see a government that looks like the following:

At the top, you have the *President. This position would be sure to get a native name (Ugvwiyuhi? I think that's the work for leader of a state, but please correct me if I'm mistaken!). He would likely serve either two, two-year terms, or be limited to a single four year term. I suspect, after independence, they'd want a leader to stick around for more than two years. My gut tells me, this position would be inspired by the Confederate Presidency than the American one - so, Commander in Chief and all the good stuff, but largely hemmed in by convention. On a side note, I could see the Union wanting a strong executive for Seqouyah so they have a figure they an negotiate with/dictate to. Whether they get what they want is another matter, however.

A strong unicarmal legislature, where each tribe (and remember, because of the refugees, there are more than five now) is granted proportional legislation based on population. This is the real power in the government, and I'd imagine that the *Speaker (don't have a good native name for the position) being a very powerful position.

Below this, you'd have the individual tribes which would maintain a fair bit of autonomy - perhaps more than Union states; though this may deminish over time due to the practical realities of being a sovereign nation.

Furthermore, I suspect that the language of government will be Cherokee and English, but with a strong emphasis on supporting the prior and phasing out the later.

What's also interesting is the identity of this nation - it didn't win its independence through a glorious struggle like many others, which the people can hang their hats upon. Instead, they received it after being on the losing side of a conflict. And I think that that is going to have some interesting effects - Seqouyah Nationalism is going to be a very real thing (though there will be efforts to put an emphasis on loyalty to Seqouyah and NOT simply to one's tribe) but it's national mythology is going to be ... complicated.

I think a rotating Presidency of some kind was more or less what I put together in the Treaty of Kansas City entry, though I'd have to go look that up. Where essentially the Chief of each nation gets voted in from a supreme council of chieftains that wields much more power than the legislature, and the Presidency of this council is largely symbolic, a sort of first among equals. So the individual nations would certainly have much more power than a US State

This also means that this is a bit of a clusterfuck of governance and the oil money is what ties much of it together.

 

[Darth_Kiryan]

I've tipped my hand on this previously

I remembered you said that a lot of the Habsburgs fled to Mexico and I have made a joke about Mexico being one of the last vestiges of European Monarchy to ironically relocate and survive in the new world.
I guessI just didn't expect it to be Ferdinand, more like he dies and his family escapes. But Ferdinand adds in a different level of expectations/problems now. I mean, when the senior line of the Habsburg monarchy goes into exile to a far away country where the junior line reigns/rules, I would expect that the senior line would not adapt as well to the privelage...

 

[traveller76]

While Sequoyah may not have the glitz and debauchery of say New Orleans, possibly Las Vegas, Havana or Mexico it would be in driving and flying distance for many working class and middle class Americans, Texans and Confederates for weekend getaways, business conventions and so on. Plus it would be a place for many people from North America and even globally to make their fortune for a couple of years and then return home. The amount of crime, offshore banking, tax evasion, human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution and drugs will also be high as people using the place to avoid tariffs and hide profits. It will not be the size of say Switzerland or the Caymans but it will have an influence.

As for government, here is an idea.

United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Curtain Jerker]

While Sequoyah may not have the glitz and debauchery of say New Orleans, possibly Las Vegas, Havana or Mexico it would be in driving and flying distance for many working class and middle class Americans, Texans and Confederates for weekend getaways, business conventions and so on. Plus it would be a place for many people from North America and even globally to make their fortune for a couple of years and then return home. The amount of crime, offshore banking, tax evasion, human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution and drugs will also be high as people using the place to avoid tariffs and hide profits. It will not be the size of say Switzerland or the Caymans but it will have an influence.

As for government, here is an idea.

United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What a cool setting to tell stories. Plus, you figure it would be sorta like Casablanca during WWII - a haven for spies and espionage as Americans, Texans, Confederates, Mexicans, and god knows who else spies on each other.

 

[DanMcCollum]

What a cool setting to tell stories. Plus, you figure it would be sorta like Casablanca during WWII - a haven for spies and espionage as Americans, Texans, Confederates, Mexicans, and god knows who else spies on each other.

I was just thinking the same thing! I suspect we know where a LOT of Noir stories set in the Cinqo-verse take place.

 

[naraht]

I was just thinking the same thing! I suspect we know where a LOT of Noir stories set in the Cinqo-verse take place.

Haiti.

 

[KingSweden24]

While Sequoyah may not have the glitz and debauchery of say New Orleans, possibly Las Vegas, Havana or Mexico it would be in driving and flying distance for many working class and middle class Americans, Texans and Confederates for weekend getaways, business conventions and so on. Plus it would be a place for many people from North America and even globally to make their fortune for a couple of years and then return home. The amount of crime, offshore banking, tax evasion, human trafficking, smuggling, prostitution and drugs will also be high as people using the place to avoid tariffs and hide profits. It will not be the size of say Switzerland or the Caymans but it will have an influence.

As for government, here is an idea.

United Arab Emirates - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There’s something darkly hilarious to me (maybe because I’m an asshole, who knows) about “and then the Cherokee take the yokel from Arkansas’ passport so he can build another tax-shelter skyscraper financed with oil profits and laundered cash”

What a cool setting to tell stories. Plus, you figure it would be sorta like Casablanca during WWII - a haven for spies and espionage as Americans, Texans, Confederates, Mexicans, and god knows who else spies on each other.

I was just thinking the same thing! I suspect we know where a LOT of Noir stories set in the Cinqo-verse take place.

“Oklahoma City as Tangier/Casablanca” was not the content I expected when I awoke today

 

[JustInThePhilippines]

I was just thinking the same thing! I suspect we know where a LOT of Noir stories set in the Cinqo-verse take place.

Native run Mafias, Natives as Crime Bosses, etc.

 

[RanulfC]

What a cool setting to tell stories. Plus, you figure it would be sorta like Casablanca during WWII - a haven for spies and espionage as Americans, Texans, Confederates, Mexicans, and god knows who else spies on each other.

Ah, but that assumes that Europe doesn't get things "right" after the CEW. (aka WWI)

There’s something darkly hilarious to me (maybe because I’m an asshole, who knows) about “and then the Cherokee take the yokel from Arkansas’ passport so he can build another tax-shelter skyscraper financed with oil profits and laundered cash”

I would recommend reading "The Cyber Way" by Alan Dean Foster for ideas of government of Sequoia, though it's more based on Navaho traditions.

“Oklahoma City as Tangier/Casablanca” was not the content I expected when I awoke today

Considering in OTL the Oklahoma State Building has an oil well prominently front and center...

Randy

 

[KingSweden24]

Native run Mafias, Natives as Crime Bosses, etc.

To be fair, we already have a great version of this in fiction with Chief Tom Rainwater in "Yellowstone," and I maintain my position that that show would be considerably superior if he was the main character rather than John Dutton

 

[HonestAbe1809]

I’m also interested in seeing how the states in Central America are picking up the pieces. Like the evident Banana Republic in Guatemala.

 

[SultanArda]

To be fair, we already have a great version of this in fiction with Chief Tom Rainwater in "Yellowstone," and I maintain my position that that show would be considerably superior if he was the main character rather than John Dutton

And also, from what I understand, many of the reservations at some point had a very corrupt leader who only cared about enriching himself.
Though, it is still a good idea.
Also, we can maybe have a tv series week at some point in the Cincoverse EU, with every day there being a post regarding a fictional tv show from that universe. My suggestion, a mafia series like Sopranos but in that native state and etc…

 

[naraht]

Ah, but that assumes that Europe doesn't get things "right" after the CEW. (aka WWI)


I would recommend reading "The Cyber Way" by Alan Dean Foster for ideas of government of Sequoia, though it's more based on Navaho traditions.



Considering in OTL the Oklahoma State Building has an oil well prominently front and center...

Randy

I believe from the clues that we've gotten in various places that there won't be a WWII level war anywhere on the planet. I *think* there is a gap in the Olympics/World Cups in the 1960s(???), but I'm not sure.

 

[KingSweden24]

I’m also interested in seeing how the states in Central America are picking up the pieces. Like the evident Banana Republic in Guatemala.

I've got some stuff on the docket for that, but not for a few more years.

I believe from the clues that we've gotten in various places that there won't be a WWII level war anywhere on the planet. I *think* there is a gap in the Olympics/World Cups in the 1960s(???), but I'm not sure.

Not WWII level all over the planet, but you will get some very serious theater-level conflicts probably more similar to individual fronts of WWII, Korea, or the Iran-Iraq War

 

[Reisen Storm]

Not WWII level all over the planet, but you will get some very serious theater-level conflicts probably more similar to individual fronts of WWII, Korea, or the Iran-Iraq War

Is it weird for me to think that North America is the only place that's spared from the conflicts?

 

[Mayukh]

Not WWII level all over the planet, but you will get some very serious theater-level conflicts probably more similar to individual fronts of WWII, Korea, or the Iran-Iraq War

How much would I be correct to assume that one of them will be in middle east, one in far east and one in south asia?

 

[LatinoDavid]

Quick question, would it be possible to write the titles and honors of the Imperial House of Habsburg-Mexico.