Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

[kelgar04]

It's an ambitious move, but a smart one. Buerat is a good defensive position, so taking it now, while it's lightly defended will prevent the Axis from being able to fortify it later.

Aye it also pretty much will gut what's left of the Italian forces in Africa as well putting Tripoli well within reach of British and Commonwealth forces.

 

[Popcorn]

WELCOME BACK!!!

 

[Belschaft]

Great update but you're missing the thread mark.

 

[allanpcameron]

Great update but you're missing the thread mark.

Out of practice!

 

[perfectgeneral]

When your dirt and sand road becomes a goat track with rocks and sand...

 

[Draconis]

With the RAF squadrons recovering from their previous operations will the British and Commonwealth forces have any amount of air cover during their movements around Beurat? I'm thinking enemy air attack may be the biggest threat they'll be facing during this next phase of Battleaxe. Unless the RAF and Commonwealth airforces can still work up some fighters. Is there anything the RN can do for shore bombardment? Or would they be under too great a threat from the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica?

 

[MattII]

With the RAF squadrons recovering from their previous operations will the British and Commonwealth forces have any amount of air cover during their movements around Beurat? I'm thinking enemy air attack may be the biggest threat they'll be facing during this next phase of Battleaxe. Unless the RAF and Commonwealth airforces can still work up some fighters. Is there anything the RN can do for shore bombardment? Or would they be under too great a threat from the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica?

That's one of the problems they're facing, the RAF being able to offer only marginal support.

 

[Orry]

Given the results of the previous British left hooks what would happen if it was detected

We need to counter attack

RUN RUN the British are coming

 

[CaptainCalvert]

With the RAF squadrons recovering from their previous operations will the British and Commonwealth forces have any amount of air cover during their movements around Beurat? I'm thinking enemy air attack may be the biggest threat they'll be facing during this next phase of Battleaxe. Unless the RAF and Commonwealth airforces can still work up some fighters. Is there anything the RN can do for shore bombardment? Or would they be under too great a threat from the Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica?

That's a good point about the advantage the axis has in air forces. Since the axis ground forces are weak, it's not going to change the outcome, but it could well delay the inevitable and exact a higher toll on the allies.
The best outcome for the allies (though maybe not their front line units) may well be that the necessary pause to consolidate forward airfields leads the Italians to send in reinforcements. This necessitate Tripoli's port be kept operational to support a larger force (so more likely to still be operational when taken) and would lead to a bigger surrender once the allies can get enough air power in place to allow the RN to disrupt supplies at an acceptable risk.
It also increases the chance of the split between Italians and Germans becoming wider.

 

[Donald Reaver]

If the Germans demand their remaining forces are resupplied first, that will increase the tension between the Italian and German forces in Libya and conflict in Rome over their place in the alliance.

 

[Draconis]

If the Germans demand their remaining forces are resupplied first, that will increase the tension between the Italian and German forces in Libya and conflict in Rome over their place in the alliance.

Or what if the Germans instead focus their efforts on evacuating their surviving army units as well as air units? Though I would think that unlikely regarding the army.

 

[Draconis]

That's a good point about the advantage the axis has in air forces. Since the axis ground forces are weak, it's not going to change the outcome, but it could well delay the inevitable and exact a higher toll on the allies.
The best outcome for the allies (though maybe not their front line units) may well be that the necessary pause to consolidate forward airfields leads the Italians to send in reinforcements. This necessitate Tripoli's port be kept operational to support a larger force (so more likely to still be operational when taken) and would lead to a bigger surrender once the allies can get enough air power in place to allow the RN to disrupt supplies at an acceptable risk.
It also increases the chance of the split between Italians and Germans becoming wider.

It increases a chance of a split because Hitler may refuse Mussolini's requests for more assistance?

 

[kelgar04]

If the Germans demand their remaining forces are resupplied first, that will increase the tension between the Italian and German forces in Libya and conflict in Rome over their place in the alliance.

That would set the cat amongst the Italian pigeons especially how the German reinforcements seemed to disintegrate on contact with British forces at least to the Italians which will damn near make them more intransigent.

Also need to consider the public perception of the Axis right now in Italy right now its probably at its lowest point and if Rommels conversation with the general leaks.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

It increases a chance of a split because Hitler may refuse Mussolini's requests for more assistance?

He'll be busy with Barbarossa (destiny etc etc), but he will also want to keep Mussolini on board, even if only because of their role in the occupation of Greece, Albania, Yugoslavia. He should also be aware of the impact on Turkey and possibly Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria of Italy even looking like they might be thinking of an armistice.
More stress on Hitler looks good to me.

 

[Donald Reaver]

Time. Shipping troops to Tunisia, where do they come from. Does the U.K. have spare troops to send. Do you reduce forces facing Italian forces in British North Africa. Takes time to ship troops, build up the supply chain. Troops from the U.K. weeks to arrive, troops from Italian front either around Africa or across the Libyan coast. French North Africa not in yet, even if they join immediately still months to integrate forces from abroad. This campaign can be won in weeks as it stands now, anything else will delay that and make it more expensive in men.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

19 June 1941. Operation Battleaxe. Day 13.

Much of the daylight hours were spent getting the 7th Armoured Division and 9th Australian Division moved forward towards Beurat. Once more the progress of the British divisions was held up by mines and the occasional Italian attempt to interfere with their advance. The problem of Italian and German aircraft attacking the coast road had the more significant effect on slowing down progress, and causing the most casualties.

It was the Divisional Engineers that took the brunt of providing a safe passage for the men and machines of the two divisions. Once more a number of officers saw that the requirement for mine clearing, and mobile anti-aircraft artillery as being critical to the success of an advance against an enemy who had time to prepare their defences and with control of the air.

As darkness fell, the first British force finally made it into Beurat, little more than a collection of poor dwellings. The 2nd Tower Hamlets Rifles, 7th Support Group’s infantry battalion, deployed off their lorries and moved into the village. A troop of engineers from 4th Field Squadron RE checked for mines and other booby-traps. These were covered by two squadrons of tanks from 7th Hussars of 4th Armoured Brigade. Half of these Valiants were Close Support versions, the HE shells provided by the 3-inch gun had proven much more valuable in these situations than the 2-pdr. To their rear, a battery each of 25-pdrs and 2-pdr anti-tank guns, deployed to support the move through the village.

Brigadier Gott had moved his Support Group HQ as near the front as possible. With the more powerful radio trucks he had, he’d found that communications between the front, provided primarily by the tank radios, and with Brigade and Division HQs was enhanced by doing this. The news that the Italians had excavated one the local Wadis into a tank trap, which was obviously covered by their artillery. As the Support Group approached it, they were quickly engulfed in enemy fire. The battery of 4th RHA 25-pdrs began to seek out the Italian artillery positions, but it was clear that this was going to be a more complex job than the current force could cope with.

Major General Michael Creagh, (OC 7th Armoured Division) when notified that the next line of Italian defences had been identified, ordered 4th Armoured Brigade, the leading element of his Division, to halt for the night, and to prepare to attack at first light. Receiving the same information, Major General Morshead ordered his 24th Brigade to move up to support 4th Armoured Brigade’s attack. This was pre-planned, with the Australians following the Armoured Brigade in the line of march. The problems however began to mount.

From what could be gathered from 7th Support Group, a frontal attack, without much reconnaissance across the Wadi, under the Italian fire, with the likelihood of the enemy aircraft striking at dawn, would be too costly. The ground to the north of the village was unsuitable for vehicles, and problematic for infantry. The option of swinging to the south and around the end of the Wadi was a much more attractive proposition. Unfortunately, the reconnaissance of that area had run into another seemingly extensive mine-field. The lack of RAF support was apparent, and reconnaissance photography of the area had missed some the Italian preparations.

For Lieutenant General O’Connor this was an expected problem. Sending the Australians and 7th Armoured Divisions forward to unseat the Italians was always going to be a gamble. He ordered Creagh and Morshead to concentrate their Divisions. He wanted them to get the majority of the artillery to have a reasonable time to be able to counter the Italians. While 4th Armoured Brigade and two of the Australian Brigades demonstrated in front of the Italian positions, 7th Armoured Brigade and 20th Brigade, with the 9th Divisional Cavalry Regiment, would head into the desert and seek a path around the Italians. Captured Italian maps had some ‘dubious tracks’ marked, at least it was a possibility to find a way to outflank the Italians by aiming for El Gheddahia.
Map from here
View attachment 719059

Nice to see you back

Once again another great update - the 8th army grinding out yet another hard fought battle in some god forsaken place that barely warrants a mention on any map

 

[kelgar04]

Hmm given everything that has happened in NA will the Germans officsr corps learn the lessons needed or assume the British got lucky?

 

[Icedaemon]

Four straight days of fighting, in the Italians case a costly fighting retreat after several prior defeats. These might be some of the best troops the Italians have, doing their best to give as good as they get with, in most cases, inferior equipment. Yet I don't see them getting any recognition from anyone in this timeline, except perhaps a handful of academics decades after the war. The British will be too busy talking about their first major theatre-scale victory once the African campaign is over. Future allied powers' members, be they the USA or the soviets, will want to use the Italians less than stellar reputation to diminish the prestige of the British units involved. The Germans will assume that the Italians were incompetent - even if the senior officers assume that Rommel went off half-cocked and know he gleefully leapt into a trap, they would still blame him and the Italians, with the troops being victims of incompetence. The Italians themselves would not want to admit they lost not just a prestigious colony, but also some of their best soldiers who were defending it.

 

[Wet Coast]

Four straight days of fighting, in the Italians case a costly fighting retreat after several prior defeats. These might be some of the best troops the Italians have, doing their best to give as good as they get with, in most cases, inferior equipment. Yet I don't see them getting any recognition from anyone in this timeline, except perhaps a handful of academics decades after the war. The British will be too busy talking about their first major theatre-scale victory once the African campaign is over. Future allied powers' members, be they the USA or the soviets, will want to use the Italians less than stellar reputation to diminish the prestige of the British units involved. The Germans will assume that the Italians were incompetent - even if the senior officers assume that Rommel went off half-cocked and know he gleefully leapt into a trap, they would still blame him and the Italians, with the troops being victims of incompetence. The Italians themselves would not want to admit they lost not just a prestigious colony, but also some of their best soldiers who were defending it.

The old quote from JFK is probably accurate here. "Victory has a thousand fathers but defeat is an orphan".

 

[Orry]

Four straight days of fighting, in the Italians case a costly fighting retreat after several prior defeats. These might be some of the best troops the Italians have, doing their best to give as good as they get with, in most cases, inferior equipment. Yet I don't see them getting any recognition from anyone in this timeline, except perhaps a handful of academics decades after the war. The British will be too busy talking about their first major theatre-scale victory once the African campaign is over. Future allied powers' members, be they the USA or the soviets, will want to use the Italians less than stellar reputation to diminish the prestige of the British units involved. The Germans will assume that the Italians were incompetent - even if the senior officers assume that Rommel went off half-cocked and know he gleefully leapt into a trap, they would still blame him and the Italians, with the troops being victims of incompetence. The Italians themselves would not want to admit they lost not just a prestigious colony, but also some of their best soldiers who were defending it.

The Italians will say that they were stabbed in the back by the Germans