F-111B finally enters service with the USN

[thefrecklepuny]

Okay, so we know the F-111 series had issues, some big, some not so big. It eventually matured as a very good all weather long range strike / attacker, providing NATO's tactical conventional and nuke big stick for 25+ years.

But suppose the F-111B's problems were ironed out. How would it have affected USN operations? How would dissimilar air combat training fare with the F-111B, esp. compared to the more agile F-14? Would close air combat training be declared void? That said, I suppose experience over the skies of Vietnam would still have to count for something.

Would it have had a long life like the Tomcat? And would the movie Top Gun have even been made depicting the big unmanuvarable interceptor? Or would they have waited till the F/A-18 Hornet (or equiv) entered service?

 

[marathag]

They were made to fight WWIII, to hit Soviet Bombers at Long Range.

'No F-14' won't take out the fighter jock culture in the Navy.

You would see more interest in the YF-17 for becoming the F-18, as even in 1973, Congress told the Navy that the F-14 was too expensive

I don't think you would see the full OTL redesign, so the *F-18 Hornet wouldn't have all the extra fuel load, since the Navy already had a long range interceptor, the F-111B, and the new single seat plane would be in squadron service in 1978

 

[joeferrito]

Okay, so we know the F-111 series had issues, some big, some not so big. It eventually matured as a very good all weather long range strike / attacker, providing NATO's tactical conventional and nuke big stick for 25+ years.

But suppose the F-111B's problems were ironed out. How would it have affected USN operations? How would dissimilar air combat training fare with the F-111B, esp. compared to the more agile F-14? Would close air combat training be declared void? That said, I suppose experience over the skies of Vietnam would still have to count for something.

Would it have had a long life like the Tomcat? And would the movie Top Gun have even been made depicting the big unmanuvarable interceptor? Or would they have waited till the F/A-18 Hornet (or equiv) entered service?

Wasn't there an Admiral that made a comment along the lines of "All the thrust in Christendom couldn't make a fighter out of that airplane" or something? As much as I like the 111, I don't know how plausible it is to get it accepted into USN Carrier Service.

One thought I've always had (and it's pretty contrary to USN doctrine, so I don't see it happening) is using the 111 as a land-based missile truck kind of like Soviet Naval Aviation. Probably a pretty small airframe for that job, though.

 

[Riain]

When it became apparent in the early 60s that the F111B would go ahead the Navy started the VFAX competition to replace the F4 in the escort/air superiority fighter and ground attack roles, working alongside the F111B in CVWs. The 1966 VFAX spec demanded it be able to beat the Mig 17 and Mig 19 in close combat, and the 1967 spec demanded later Soviet fighters, as well as undertaking the attack missions of the A7, it being assumed in 1966 that in the 70s there would be 1 sqn of F111Bs and 3 VFAX sqns in each CVW.

In the event the VFAX proved to be a dud, not better than the F4 as a fighter or the a7 as an attack aircraft. So if the F111B does get it's shit together the USN will be in trouble since the rest of its CVW will be crap.

 

[Mumbles]

Wasn't there an Admiral that made a comment along the lines of "All the thrust in Christendom couldn't make a fighter out of that airplane" or something?

Vice Admiral Tom Connolly speaking to a congressional hearing on the F-111B in 1967 and asked to give his personal rather than official opinion. Effectively killed his chances of further promotion, but guaranteed him legendary status in the F-14 and US Naval aviation community in perpetuity.

 

[Matt Wiser]

And that effectively killed the F-111B program, despite MacNamara (ugh, retch, puke) and his Whiz Kids.

 

[Riain]

Grumman was working on the F 111B, trying to reduce weight, and in parallel was contracted by the Navy to undertake studies of advanced fighters. In the process Grumman came up with design 303 and in 1967 reworked this design to include the AWG9-Phoenix system.

As a result, bearing in mind the problems with F111B which was pushing it towards inexorable cancellation, the Navy was presented with the answer to both of its problems, a replacement for the failing F111B and a replacement for the F4 in the escort/air superiority role. The F111B was cancelled and a month later the Navy issued the VFX requirement written around Grumman design 303. 6 manufacturers submitted proposals but Grumman's 6th refinement of 303 won the competition.

I wonder what would have happened if Grumman hadn't been able to squeeze the AWG9/Phoenix into its model 303 in a timely fashion.

 

[JudgeKing]

Grumman was working on the F 111B, trying to reduce weight, and in parallel was contracted by the Navy to undertake studies of advanced fighters. In the process Grumman came up with design 303 and in 1967 reworked this design to include the AWG9-Phoenix system.

As a result, bearing in mind the problems with F111B which was pushing it towards inexorable cancellation, the Navy was presented with the answer to both of its problems, a replacement for the failing F111B and a replacement for the F4 in the escort/air superiority role. The F111B was cancelled and a month later the Navy issued the VFX requirement written around Grumman design 303. 6 manufacturers submitted proposals but Grumman's 6th refinement of 303 won the competition.

I wonder what would have happened if Grumman hadn't been able to squeeze the AWG9/Phoenix into its model 303 in a timely fashion.

Then it would be the McDonnell-Douglas Model 225 becoming the F-14 as it was the only other competitor to meet all of the VFX program's performance requirements.

 

[Delta Force]

If the aircraft is only an interceptor, a variant of the A-5 could fill the role. The linear bomb bay could be revised to a conventional design, perhaps with the now empty space towards the rear being used for a third engine and/or permanent fuel storage.

According to this, the bay dimensions were 32'4" long (9.86 meters), with the bay capable of holding three fuel cans that are 8'4" (2.54 meters) long by 2'3" (0.69 meters) wide. The AIM-47B was designed with folding fins for internal carriage on the F-12, so an A-5 interceptor should be able to carry at least two missiles internally, and two externally.

That could enter service in the late 1960s or early 1970s, and the Navy could procure other aircraft for the attack and fighter roles. I think an F-15B with strike capabilities and the F-17 would be interesting compliments.