How to keep a continent hidden for centuries?

[Ora_Poix]

First of all, this is literally my first post here on alternatehistory, so sorry in advance for any wrong vocabulary. I did a read trough the terminology page on the wiki, but i might still get stuff wrong.

The title isn't a rethorical question. In the ATL, I want to keep an alternate Portuguese Oceania unknown to everyone else, but especially other European powers. However, the islands needs to be colonized as they normally would. Is this even doable? And if so, how exactly? Australia would've been discovered by the Portuguese in the early 1500s, kept a secret for four full centuries, until it wouldbe been exposed in the beggining of the 19th century.
I've theorized that there needs to be a bigger Asian immigration, Portugal needs to keep a stronger control over Southeast Asia, and many criticals on metaphysical d20s for Australia not to be found by other nation's explorers and for documents about it to be kept secret. Luckily, Portugal in OTL already has a history of secrecy during the Age of Discovery, but can you really apply it to a continent and for such a great period of time? Will we only require some small changes in history, such as Willem Janszoon's travel failing somehow, or will we need deeper changes to Portuguese society or world events?

 

[Forbiddenparadise64]

How would this even be enforced? Not just among Europeans but in general, and what about the Indonesians and other groups who had at least some awareness of it (hence dingoes existence)? People would be able to trace Portuguese ships from other European nations too.

 

[The Tai-Pan]

Nothing stays hidden for long. In OTL, many of the colonizing powers tried to keep their charts and maps secret, but stuff leaked out. They were too valuable, too many eyes. Worse, even if you could somehow magically keep things secret, other nations will stumble on it. You don't think anyone else would sail a ship near Australia for 300 years?

 

[Orcot]

I would go with a basque Canada.
Go with something of: The Basque History of the world: The story of a nation.
And essentialy the basque settle newfoundland.
Some timeline they basque discover canada around the 10the century they occasionaly stop there whilst hunting for fish and wales.
During the crusades some efforts are made to build bigger settlements. 1100-1300. 1347 The black death races over Europe and over 2000 flee to canada.
By the time they return basqueland has been ravaged by the war of the bands.

So they decide not to stay.

They do occasionaly sell their wares in the northern harbors trading with the icelandics and competing with the dutch. THey are rediscovered in the 1520. ANd proudly show them a church before the main settlement build in the 1100 to have been hidden for 400 years

 

[pompejus]

You don't think anyone else would sail a ship near Australia for 300 years?

The problem with Australia is that it is realy, realy close to the sailingroute from Europe to Indonesia. If a major European (or even West African) power sails to Indonesia regularly, it is going to find Australia eventualy, just like happened OTL with the Dutch (and possibly the Portuguese).

 

[Ora_Poix]

Nothing stays hidden for long. In OTL, many of the colonizing powers tried to keep their charts and maps secret, but stuff leaked out. They were too valuable, too many eyes. Worse, even if you could somehow magically keep things secret, other nations will stumble on it. You don't think anyone else would sail a ship near Australia for 300 years?

Yep, its pretty hard, I just want to know if theres a way to make it plausible, or at least to find a middleground of sorts. I mentioned the Portuguese because, for example, the Cape Route was only leaked to dutch and english traders 1 century after its "creation". And answering the question: Yep, a lot of luck would be needed too. I've theorized on a stronger grip on Southeast Asia by the portuguese, turning the Dutch-Portuguese war into more of a stalemate where the dutch lose Batavia and the portuguese keep Malacca

 

[Fabius Maximus]

The problem with Australia is that it is realy, realy close to the sailingroute from Europe to Indonesia. If a major European (or even West African) power sails to Indonesia regularly, it is going to find Australia eventualy, just like happened OTL with the Dutch (and possibly the Portuguese).

Perhaps a Portuguese New Zealand would be more possible? I don't think that's on the way to anywhere else, or at least not to anywhere else early modern Europeans were regularly visiting.

 

[Aluma]

Perhaps a Portuguese New Zealand would be more possible? I don't think that's on the way to anywhere else, or at least not to anywhere else early modern Europeans were regularly visiting.

I think Portuguese NZ works best too if you wanna keep it hidden

Another possibility is simply killing off the Portuguese Empire as early as possible, which you could do if Portugal lost some battles against the natives or some ships(like Cabral's) didnt return leaving the government's chests empty, that would force them to deem Asia too much of a hassle and not profitable enough for the trouble which could convince other europeans(mainly the dutch and spanish at the time) that sailing around Africa wasnt worth it and they better focus on mediterranean colonies to snatch profits from the turks

That would leave the surviving portuguese colonies in Asia and Oceania all for themselves for a century or two before some other european state tries to give it another go, as a side effect that may also delay the discovery of Brazil as it was found by ships that crashed there while trying to sail around Africa, perhaps you could still keep one or two portuguese communities of unlucky merchants fending for themselves in there too after they got lost in the way

Regardless, they would be found eventually, but the initial contact would make for a interesting timeline

 

[Arkenfolm]

I would go with a basque Canada.
Go with something of: The Basque History of the world: The story of a nation.
And essentialy the basque settle newfoundland.
Some timeline they basque discover canada around the 10the century they occasionaly stop there whilst hunting for fish and wales.
During the crusades some efforts are made to build bigger settlements. 1100-1300. 1347 The black death races over Europe and over 2000 flee to canada.
By the time they return basqueland has been ravaged by the war of the bands.

So they decide not to stay.

They do occasionaly sell their wares in the northern harbors trading with the icelandics and competing with the dutch. THey are rediscovered in the 1520. ANd proudly show them a church before the main settlement build in the 1100 to have been hidden for 400 years

How would that be "hidden?" Vinland and Markland were known to educated Europeans for centuries, despite the fact they were only sporadically visited at best. If there were entire settlements frequently trading with Iceland (and presumably Greenland), then they're definitely going to be even more well-known, to the point the King of Norway (or Denmark later in that era) might consider an expedition to force them to submit to his authority.

 

[Orcot]

How would that be "hidden?" Vinland and Markland were known to educated Europeans for centuries, despite the fact they were only sporadically visited at best. If there were entire settlements frequently trading with Iceland (and presumably Greenland), then they're definitely going to be even more well-known, to the point the King of Norway (or Denmark later in that era) might consider an expedition to force them to submit to his authority.

Because they are basque, and iceland isn't really willing to tell denmark
And denmark think they are french fisherman

These canadian basque's do trade in places like antwerp, london and even france altough most avoid the region of navarre as they aren't content with spanish and french rule.

Also whilst europeans might know of the landmass
The basques are defending their territory fiercly and Europe believes they are fishing grounds. But isn't aware of the scale of the settlements and that they are permanent settlements until 1520.
Also the blackdeath helps as a lot of trade with iceland simply stops during this period and contacts are lost

 

[Ora_Poix]

I think Portuguese NZ works best too if you wanna keep it hidden

Another possibility is simply killing off the Portuguese Empire as early as possible, which you could do if Portugal lost some battles against the natives or some ships(like Cabral's) didnt return leaving the government's chests empty, that would force them to deem Asia too much of a hassle and not profitable enough for the trouble which could convince other europeans(mainly the dutch and spanish at the time) that sailing around Africa wasnt worth it and they better focus on mediterranean colonies to snatch profits from the turks

That would leave the surviving portuguese colonies in Asia and Oceania all for themselves for a century or two before some other european state tries to give it another go, as a side effect that may also delay the discovery of Brazil as it was found by ships that crashed there while trying to sail around Africa, perhaps you could still keep one or two portuguese communities of unlucky merchants fending for themselves in there too after they got lost in the way

Regardless, they would be found eventually, but the initial contact would make for a interesting timeline

I like this Idea a lot. Tbf I'm more into making Brazil as it was OTL or perhaps even more profitable (maybe with a alternative Treaty of Tordesilhas?) but so that Europe has much more interest in the New World that in the Indian. Perhaps a defeat or a draw in the Battle of Diu should do the trick, as that is the battle when Portugal took full control of the Indian Ocean.
As you said, make the Spice trade much less profitable and much more of a hassle so that European interest is much lower than in OTL

 

[Aluma]

I like this Idea a lot. Tbf I'm more into making Brazil as it was OTL or perhaps even more profitable (maybe with a alternative Treaty of Tordesilhas?) but so that Europe has much more interest in the New World that in the Indian. Perhaps a defeat or a draw in the Battle of Diu should do the trick, as that is the battle when Portugal took full control of the Indian Ocean.
As you said, make the Spice trade much less profitable and much more of a hassle so that European interest is much lower than in OTL

That could work!
Though in such a scenario I think colonies is Asia would be less unknown/forgotten about and more so ignored in favour of Brazil/America

 

[Arkenfolm]

Because they are basque, and iceland isn't really willing to tell denmark
And denmark think they are french fisherman

Why wouldn't Iceland tell Denmark when Danish appointed bureaucrats are running the place? Or the merchants trading with Iceland

These canadian basque's do trade in places like antwerp, london and even france altough most avoid the region of navarre as they aren't content with spanish and french rule.

It would be too far away with medieval tech for regular trading. There's little incentive to go much past Britain or Norway.

Also whilst europeans might know of the landmass
The basques are defending their territory fiercly and Europe believes they are fishing grounds. But isn't aware of the scale of the settlements and that they are permanent settlements until 1520.
Also the blackdeath helps as a lot of trade with iceland simply stops during this period and contacts are lost

Europe wouldn't believe they were "just fishing grounds" because Iceland--and Greenland--would be importing timber from there too (as it may be cheaper than timber imported from Norway), and possibly walrus ivory and other goods to sell to Europe. In exchange, they'd be trading local wares like animal hides and such. The Basque would also likely be competing with Icelanders to purchase elite goods from Europe. There's also the matter of the Church--if they are permanent settlements, then they'll require a priest, which means writing letters to a bishop to send one. Very likely they'll want to set up their own diocese and get a bishop, just like Greenland did, and Greenland received their bishop in the 12th century, so it wouldn't take much settlement to get this idea. I suspect Norway would be interested in this land since 13th century Norway was very much into projecting power in the North Atlantic hence the submission of Greenland and Iceland.

The Black Death did cut contact, but not by much since all it did was disrupt the schedule of ships (which mostly affected Greenland). Basically, medieval Europe was too linked for this to happen, so they'd need to be unrealistically isolationist to the point they don't even bother to practice Christianity. Which wouldn't make sense, because medieval Icelanders found out that nominal adherence to Christianity makes you rich, even if priests with multiple wives, bishops fathering bastards, and the church being in the hands of powerful landlords is what passes for Christianity.

 

[Orcot]

It would be too far away with medieval tech for regular trading. There's little incentive to go much past Britain or Norway.

Hmm controversial history and alt history is blurring the line a bid. Theirs claims that they could have done this at 1372
Theirs a danger mixing alt history with controversial history. In a alt history setting let's just say they potentialy could have done this.

The Black Death did cut contact, but not by much since all it did was disrupt the schedule of ships (which mostly affected Greenland). Basically, medieval Europe was too linked for this to happen, so they'd need to be unrealistically isolationist to the point they don't even bother to practice Christianity. Which wouldn't make sense, because medieval Icelanders found out that nominal adherence to Christianity makes you rich, even if priests with multiple wives, bishops fathering bastards, and the church being in the hands of powerful landlords is what passes for Christianity.

The purchase of unicorn horns/narwhale tooth did dip significantly perhaps people grounded thel to powder and ate it in hope it have protection but theirs limited trade for a significant period ... I believe

Europe wouldn't believe they were "just fishing grounds" because Iceland--and Greenland--would be importing timber from there too (as it may be cheaper than timber imported from Norway), and possibly walrus ivory and other goods to sell to Europe. In exchange, they'd be trading local wares like animal hides and such. The Basque would also likely be competing with Icelanders to purchase elite goods from Europe.

Basques had rudders by the 12the century

. There's also the matter of the Church--if they are permanent settlements, then they'll require a priest, which means writing letters to a bishop to send one. Very likely they'll want to set up their own diocese and get a bishop, just like Greenland did, and Greenland received their bishop in the 12th century, so it wouldn't take much settlement to get this idea. I suspect Norway would be interested in this land since 13th century Norway was very much into projecting power in the North Atlantic hence the submission of Greenland and Iceland.

Nice one It would be very difficult to hide a continent for 400 years for sure. Practical impossible