The Tjibarri seem incredibly genre savvy and skilled at playing power politics than even contemporary old world powers would be on average. How old are the Aururian states compared to their Native American counterparts? Compared to them the older Aururian civilisations appear to have a degree of political sophistication well beyond any of them ever did. If any non-Afro Eurasian state has a chance of remaining intact after old world contact it is surely them.
Lands of Red and Gold, Act II
- Thread starter Jared
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TheScottishMongol
Banned
Well, that was...certainly to be expected eventually. Though I do wonder what the future holds for the Middle Country. Puppet? Protectorate? Colony? Guess we'll see.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Tjibarr, at this point, is the heir to some four thousand years of civilization and well over 1500 years of continuous literacy. More importantly, the kind of political skills Lopitja has are the kind Tjibarri government and society are designed to cultivate. The constant competition between factions for wealth and power encourages this level of gamesmanship — all the more so because it seems to be completely nonlethal. If you can't kill your enemies and you can't scare them, you have to outsmart them every single day.
It's not a society in which I could function, but if the Dutch are going to do things like the sacking of White City (and man, was I ever sorry to hear about that) then I'm glad they're up against Tjibarr.
twovultures
Donor
Tjibarr does seem to be a society deliberately made to face off against competing colonialist powers. Even as Europeans take control of the continent, I think they will continue to shape Aururia's destiny.
Also, I'm interested to see that the French are coming into the continent. There power projection abilities seem inferior to the Dutch and English at this point, but it will be interesting to see if they can work with native allies to get a toehold on the continent (not that this would be a good thing in the long run for their native allies).
The Poarter
Banned
Question
If Aurora as a whole were to have a continental flag what would it look like?
I must have missed some answers because these questions seem obvious to me.
Will Aurora undergo colonization?
What would the modern day population of Aurora and New Zealand be if it were to have these crops?
What is the opinion of Aurora for people of Sir Lanka and Madagascar?
If Aurora as a whole were to have a continental flag what would it look like?
I must have missed some answers because these questions seem obvious to me.
Will Aurora undergo colonization?
What would the modern day population of Aurora and New Zealand be if it were to have these crops?
What is the opinion of Aurora for people of Sir Lanka and Madagascar?
Division of the year into six or seven seasons depending on temperature, wind and rainfall is common among Australian Aboriginal peoples.
Hopefully Tjibar will be able to survive as a buffer, like Thailand and Afghanistan did IOTL.
mojojojo
Gone Fishin'
Here is an area that I don't think has been touched on before : Russia. How is it doing at this point in the tL?
wrt trading goods with the Aururians, the Europeans may have some success with textiles.
In SE Asia what exchanged well for spice was the chintzes and silks of Bengal, and I could see it easily happen in Aururia. In Tasmania bulky textiles exchanged for bulky cider gum, even?
Perhaps the English broadcloth, which they so desperately tried to trade with the Chinese and Japanese, may find a market in Tasmania or New Zealand?
I expect the arrival of silk and lighter cotton clothes to have a huge effect on Aururian societies, but with the plagues and upheaval of the 17th Century clothing would be an easy target for those wishing to restore the old order, both from those in power and those without.
Perhaps bans of import, or sumptuary laws and taxes against Indian cloth, the proceeds of which would pay for the purchase of the more acceptable western musket, horse and armour?
In SE Asia what exchanged well for spice was the chintzes and silks of Bengal, and I could see it easily happen in Aururia. In Tasmania bulky textiles exchanged for bulky cider gum, even?
Perhaps the English broadcloth, which they so desperately tried to trade with the Chinese and Japanese, may find a market in Tasmania or New Zealand?
I expect the arrival of silk and lighter cotton clothes to have a huge effect on Aururian societies, but with the plagues and upheaval of the 17th Century clothing would be an easy target for those wishing to restore the old order, both from those in power and those without.
Perhaps bans of import, or sumptuary laws and taxes against Indian cloth, the proceeds of which would pay for the purchase of the more acceptable western musket, horse and armour?
While no analogy should be taken too closely, when thinking of Tjibarr and the Five Rivers, it may help to consider a comparison with classical Greece.
Classical Greece was able to support large urban populations (thanks to imported food), had strong philosophical and commercial traditions, and developed a whole range of new cultural concepts. The Five Rivers are also able to support relatively large urban populations (thanks to perennial crops), and thanks to natural transportation networks has a strong internal trade network, with subsidiary trade networks externally. The Five Rivers, too, came up with its own cultural innovations.
In particular, though, classical Greece also recognised the concept of balance of power. The Five Rivers states recognised this concept too, originally as four states fighting amongst themselves (Tjibarr, Gutjanal, Lopitja and Yigutji), then, after one of those collapsed due to climatic changes, with the rise of the new state of the Yadji to the south. So the Five Rivers - and Tjibarr in particular - think in terms both of balance of power, and of how this can be disrupted by the appearance of a new power.
Naturally, no analogy is exact. The Five Rivers are heirs to a longer direct tradition of literacy and continuous cultural development than Greece was; Greece lost literacy (mostly) during the Dark Ages, which was also a significant cultural interruption. Conversely, Greece can build on some older traditions (of Mesopotamian and Egyptian origin).
Of course, in some (though certainly not all) areas the Five Rivers is ahead of classical Greece - such as in medicine and distillation. The Five Rivers are behind overall due to not having as long a tradition of technology to build on, not being in a position to import technology from other places, and also things like a relative lack of domesticated animals.
On the whole, though, a general comparison to classical Greece is not a bad one.
The Tjibarri political system is certainly much more robust than that of, say, the Atjuntja or Yadji, or the Triple Alliance or Tawantinsuyu. It's not without its flaws, but on the whole it is much less vulnerable than most other states. The most obvious vulnerability, of course, is that Tjibarr has two neighbours (Gutjanal and Yigutji) who have a long tradition of rivalry, and who may perhaps be persuaded to move against Tjibarr.
Tjibarr wasn't intentionally designed to fend off invading powers - I simply ran with what seeming both interesting and plausible - but yes, they do have more potential for survival than most of their neighbours.
The Five Rivers has been the economic heart of Aururia for centuries if not millennia, which helps. Tjibarr also has an immense advantage of geography. Its heartland is simply very, very hard for Europeans to invade, being already at the end of a long supply line from Europe, and then requiring a long push inland upriver, where it's much easier for Tjibarr to send forces downriver.
As I think I've mentioned before, of the Aururian societies which have some chance to survive until 1800, the likely contenders are (in order), the Five Rivers, the Nuttana, the Yadji and (rank outsiders) the Patjimunra. Possibly the highlanders too, if only because colonising powers won't be too bothered by them.
The French have some significant disadvantages in terms of building up the sort of merchant marine required to compete with the Dutch and English: not as much shipbuilding, plus a much stronger tendency to interfere with commercial activities via taxation and the like. Plus the general distraction of having to fight lots of land-based wars.
However, they do have some advantages of their own. Generally better at cooperating with local powers, for one. A decent presence in Aotearoa, for another. And the fact that they are neither English nor Dutch, which to some Aururian peoples makes a fair bit of difference.
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, the only question about the fate of the Atjuntja was how long they lasted. They may survive at a better level than, say, the Triple Alliance, but at the very least a very strongly-puppetised protectorate.
In the seventeenth or eighteenth centuries, probably an endless argument, although it wouldn't really occur to anyone to describe a continental flag of Aururia. (It would be like asking for a unified European flag during the same period.)
In the late nineteenth or twentieth centuries, such a thing might be conceivable, but it would probably give too much away to describe what such a flag might look like.
Depends how you define colonisation, but yes, parts of it will at least. Of course, colonisation runs the whole gamut from "trading post" to "informal client state" to "protectorate" to "directly ruled subjects" to "settlement colony", so that leaves rather a lot of scope to choose from.
If you're asking about what the fate of all of Aururia will be in terms of colonisation, well, that hasn't been revealed yet.
To a first approximation, the population of OTL Australia and NZ would be the same as OTL if they had access to the basic crops. Colonial Australia and NZ's population was not really limited by lack of food, so it wouldn't change too much - just have more food for export. Potentially some of the spices could act as minor immigration magnets, but probably not on a large scale.
For the ATL population of Australia and NZ in the twenty-first century... well, it'll be higher than OTL, but I'm not sure yet how much higher.
Sri Lanka - "people we sell spices to (and buy from)"
Madagascar - "people where the slaves come from" - though that doesn't mean that they have any particular negative views of Malagasy people per se - they don't really think of slavery in racial terms
The Dutch troops did get more out of control than was planned, but regardless of what else happened, they would move to quash the House of Pain and its faith as soon as they took effective control. The VOC had a great deal of religious tolerance - for practical reasons - but accepting human sacrifice would be beyond the pale even for them.
Yes, in OTL the equivalent indigenous people of south-western Australia - Noongar - divided their calendar into six seasons. The particular seasons which they used were different to the ones here, since I figured that here they would move to an agriculturally-based calendar, but the principle is the same.
It's possible, though as always with such things, I don't reveal too much in advance.
Very good question! I don't have too many details worked out - perhaps there's someone more familiar with the history of seventeenth-century Russia who might have a few more ideas.
Peter the Great, in and of himself, is obviously butterflied away, but that doesn't mean that there won't be a similar "modernising" ruler arising at some point. I don't know enough about Russian history to know whether Peter the Great was vital or whether he just represented general trends (i.e. will an analogue be likely to appear).
In general, Russia made it through the Aururian plagues no better and no worse off than most of its contemporaries. Russia did, however, benefit from the Swedish-Polish Wars in the middle of the century, in which an even-stronger Sweden aimed at Poland, and still effectively broke Poland's status as a great power. Russia stepped into part of that vacuum, though it, too, ended up fighting Sweden. (Such are the vagaries of warfare.)
The Russian push into Siberia had already begun in OTL, and won't have been greatly delayed by the Aururian plagues. Russia will have lost parts of its population, but the new plagues will make what was already a horrific death toll for the indigenous Siberian peoples even worse. Certainly Russia will have first reached the Pacific Ocean by no later than 1650 (a decade or so after OTL), if not earlier, and will continue its push to colonise Siberia.
In terms of other effects of contact with Aururia, well, Russia will be less affected than most. Trade is difficult, although some of the Aururian spices may flow through in a small way.
Textiles (or even raw cotton and silk) are certainly amongst the main goods which would be desired in Aururia. Indeed, in terms of steady trade, they're probably about the best there is. Some Asian spices would have high desireability too, but the European companies also want to ship some of those back to Europe. The native Aururian fibres (flax, plus a few minor ones) are not as versatile as cotton or silk or even wool. Textiles made from New Zealand flax would have some specialised uses, but on the whole cotton and silk would be more desirable.
Broadcloth (and other wool) is more ambiguous; New Zealand flax also has its advantages, although it might be more convenient for the Maori kings to just swap imported textiles for spices and then put their slaves to other uses.
*Tasmanian gum cider is by now not much of an export - not to European tastes - but imported textiles might be traded for gold and peppers (popular exports).
Sumptuary taxes sound the most likely; the aristocrats and well-to-do will still want to wear the newer textiles, so why not make them pay for it?
I can't speak from firsthand experience, but I'm told it tastes a lot like apple cider. It's the sweetness which makes it so desireable in Aururia, since they have a relative lack of sweeteners. (Wattle gum and fruits are about it, until the introduction of sugar cane.)
In terms of European tastes, it's not that Europeans won't drink it at all. European visitors to Aururia will sample it, and some will enjoy it. But it's not worth exporting such a bulky product back to Europe. Europeans would not pay anything like the sort of prices which would be needed to justify sending gum cider halfway around the world. Not when they already have apple cider which they can make locally.
The Nuttana have certainly made it to Africa. They would have visited by crossing the Indian Ocean, in a general exploratory way, during the late 1660s or early 1670s, taking advantage of the Anglo-Dutch Wars so that both of those powers were less inclined to interfere.
It wasn't dwelt on in great detail during previous posts, but it was mentioned that by 1683, the first Nuttana explorer (named Korowal) had circumnavigated the southern hemisphere, using the strong westerlies of the Roaring Forties and sailing via all three of the great capes (Cape Leeuwin, Cape Horn and Cape of Good Hope).
Sometime not too long after that, the Nuttana will sail into the Atlantic, again in a general exploratory way. For the Atlantic they have the advantage of knowing roughly the winds and currents, from traded maps and occasional Europeans who have been recruited to join them.
The first Nuttana trader to reach *Charleston, SC did so in 1697, and Nuttana will have reached Europe around the same general timeframe. They aren't necessarily trading very much - after all, the main European trading powers also have granted monopolies to their native companies - but the Nuttana have made it there.
What sort of state are the inland Gunnagal kingdoms in? Being far from the coast should insulate them from European incursions (though not disease), but in general how do they fare with both the technological changes as well as their having to deal with both Tjibarr and Durigal? Do their internal structures have much noteworthy as well?
The inland Five Rivers kingdoms do not have a direct equivalent to the factions; they play football, but for them it is just a game rather than part of a broader rivalry. Gutjanal has a council of elders (leading aristocrats) who are responsible for choosing the king, but once in power the king wields rather more power than in Tjibarr. Yigutji is more complex, in that the king in theory is an absolute monarch - there is no official limit to his power - but kings who disregard the wishes of the aristocracy/plutocracy too openly tend to have short reigns.
What all three Five Rivers kingdoms understand full well, though, is the concept of balance of power. They've all fought each other at various times, while also forming alliances when needed. They mostly view the Yadji/Durigal as the biggest threat overall (although Yigutji often sided with the Yadji), but also understand the need not to trust their own neighbours too much.
In their general state since European contact, well, the plagues have hit them hard, of course. Yigutji came closest to fragmenting after the measles/Great Death killed both the king and heir, but held together because Tjibarr did not want to intervene and discouraged Gutjanal from doing so. Indeed, since the mid-1640s Tjibarr has encouraged a loose alliance between the three kingdoms, and that's more or less held.
In terms of broader technology, there has been some technological diffusion, of course, particularly in terms of domesticated animals. In general, though, the inland kingdoms have received less of that since anything has to pass through Tjibarr or Durigal first (usually Tjibarr). They do have a fair amount of European weapons - Tjibarr sells them a decent number, at reasonable prices, as part of their alliance. (As with all things Tjibarri, though, Tjibarr is playing more than one game here.)
Both kingdoms would dearly love to have their own trade connections to European powers, of course, but geography gets in the way. Gutjanal would have to go through the highlands (lots of annoying highlanders), while Yigutji's best route is through the Patjimunra, but the problem is that the Patjimunra don't buy that much European technology, and what they get, they want to keep. Yigutji could in theory go through an alternative route through what's called the southern highlands (of NSW) - Goulburn, Mittagong/Bowral, Campbelltown, Liverpool - to an English trading post in *Sydney, but the country in between is fairly rugged, full of hostile people, and does not have anything resembling decent roads, so thus far nothing has come of that.
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Given the openly decentralized nature of power in the Five Rivers kingdoms, have there been any attempts by Europeans to stir up dissension or otherwise steer the court through bribing/manipulating individual factions? I'm a bit surprised that they (apparently) haven't tried a heavy-handed attempt at divide-and-rule yet.
Europeans have tried to bribe the factions, or individuals within the factions, several times. It even works, sometimes - but it depends what the bribe is for.
Small-scale bribes ("gifts", in Tjibarri etiquette) for more favourable trade deals, or to switch trade from other merchants or factions, will often succeed. It's almost impossible to bribe a Tjibarri merchant to do something which goes directly against their faction's wishes - if only because the merchant knows what will happen if they get found out - but in terms of the usual commercial jockeying, it's perfectly possible.
Bribery on a larger scale, e.g. setting one faction against another, is sometimes possible - but only if the faction judges it in their interest to do so. The factions compete all the time anyway, and switch their alliances fairly regularly as part of that competition, so if some gullible foreigners want to give them money to do something they would have been willing to do anyway, well, sure why not?
Bribery on a larger scale still, though - e.g. trying to unseat the king, or persuade Tjibarr to switch support from the VOC to EIC, or to agree to grant the VOC a monopoly rather than the large majority of trade - well, that fails, with varying degrees of specularity. A kinder factionary might explain to the would-be briber that such matters rest with the King and Council, a less kind might just take the money and then do nothing tangible with it, or perhaps just report about a few failed "attempts" to persuade the rest of the Council to back whatever venture had been proposed.
This sort of thing, of course, is part of the reason why the Dutch have a saying about counting your fingers after shaking hands with a Tjibarri merchant.
I'm still not certain of how religion in the Middle Country will play out, but certainly there's no reason for the Atjuntja to become Calvinists in the short term. The VOC didn't particularly encourage it in OTL, and they're unlikely to do much ATL. They will suppress the human sacrifice aspects of Atjuntja religion, but that's about all. For the rest, they don't much care.
So some "sanitised" version of the Atjuntja religion may emerge. Or the pseudo-Plirite and pseudo-Calvinist cults may spread on their own, since there won't be as much state suppression of them. The VOC may or may not try to "correct" the pseudo-Calvinist cults. Or religion may spread from the Malagasy slaves, either their traditional religion or Islam. Or some syncretic fusion of two or more of the above, really.
Oh?
OTL, cotton was a very niche market until the invention of the Cotton Gin, which won't have happened yet ITTL at this point of the story.
The sheer amount of effort required to pick out the seeds meant that it was very, very expensive.
Linen/flax was the main plant fiber until then. IIRC.