Not as many as you might think. In both '41 and '42, the Axis powers ran a not-insignificant portion of their logistics on captured British vehicles. The real gain is in fuel, which is now slightly more available, without having to ship so much over to NA. Also, a quick win in NA means the British can also send more stuff to Russia, balancing things somewhat in the other direction.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
It's a major plus for the Axis right now, not so much in manpower terms but in planes, trucks and tanks. Case Blue will go better though it still won't succeed, the distances are too great. The problem for the Axis is that a lot of that benefit is going to be sucked up in defending islands in the Med from British amphibious operations in 1942 and the added risk to Ploesti from Crete holding is going to become a massive problem.
I know it's unwise and really strategically unsoubd but I really don't give a toss about the USSR taking more losses.
Look More Closely Later
Gone Fishin'
Arctic Convoys have problems (See what happened to PQ17) which I'm not sure will be improved for the Western Allies by an early end to fighting in North Africa. Or not improved unless Churchill decides to liberate Norway.
Well for one thing there is less demand for carrier support for Malta runs and by extension less chance of a couple of them being sunk (Eagle and Ark Royal) or sustaining damage to others
Having a flat top even something like Eagle defending PQ17 would have been a godsend - she was capable of operating 20 Sea hurricanes at the time of her sinking (inc 4 reserve aircraft)
So a mix of say 12 Sea Hurricanes and 8 folding wing Albacores would serve to help protect the convoy
It was a combination of PQ17 resulting in Arctic convoys being cancelled and the results at Midway reducing the threat of the Japanese navy that freed up the over stretched RN and allowed Pedestal to be carried out with 3 carriers and other ships concentrated for that mission.
Here we are seeing the reverse with the burden reduced by a far earlier result in North Africa allowing an air bridge to Malta to be provided from Libya and convoys from Alex to be far better protected by those same airbases and those on Crete.
No need for club runs to surge aircraft to the Islands and expensive and costly convoys from the Gib end to keep it resupplied.
Allowing the carriers to be used elsewhere.
Arctic Convoys might be slightly improved by lower RN losses and lesser Med Commitments through mid-42 which may beef up escorts... however at the same time, the redeployment of the ASuW Stukas to Norway might up losses as well...
When I ran this scenario in Keynes Cruisers the lesser German commitment in 1941 to the Med led to slightly larger gains in 1941 and a slightly less successful Russian December counter-attack as more formed reserves were available. By mid-1942, the slightly increased initial resource endowment had been attrited back to near historical trend lines --- the big change would be the earlier, more frequent and eventually successful bombing against the Romanian oil industry.
26 January 1942. Camp Borden, Ontario, Canada.
allanpcameron
Donor
26 January 1942. Camp Borden, Ontario, Canada.
The General Order had become effective, and all around the camp the various officers were trying to figure out how to go about putting it into practice.
4th Canadian Infantry Division had been established in May 1940. The three Infantry Brigades had slowly taken shape, and being last in line for equipment, had slowly built themselves up during 1941. General Order 132/42 had reorganised and renamed the Division as the 4th Canadian Armoured Division.
Following the normal organisation for an Armoured Division, there would be an armoured car regiment, two armoured Brigades (each of three Regiments), and a Support group. The Support Group would still have the odd mixture of a field regiment of artillery, along with an anti-tank regiment, a light anti-aircraft regiment and one battalion of infantry.
There was already talk about following the model of British Armoured Divisions in North Africa, who had moved away from the Support Group model. That kind of Division would have its own Artillery (three field regiments) and with two Armoured Brigades and would have an Infantry Brigade (Motor) attached.
At this point however Ottawa were following the same model as 5th Canadian Armoured Division. Alongside the formation of the Armoured Division the 11th Infantry Brigade, would become the basis for 2nd Army Tank Brigade taking with it 26th Army Tank Battalion (The Grey and Simcoe Foresters) and the 20th Army Tank Battalion (16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse). These would be joined in due course by the 23rd Army Tank Battalion (The Halifax Rifles).
The conversion to an Armoured Division meant that 10th Infantry Brigade was now to be known as 3rd Armoured Brigade, and the three regiments (British Columbia Regiment, The Elgin Regiment and the South Alberta Regiment) would become 28th, 25th and 29th Armoured Regiments, but keeping their traditional names in brackets. The Lake Superior Regiment would be Motorised and stay part of the 3rd Armoured Brigade.
12th Infantry Brigade was now known as 4th Armoured Brigade, and again the three regiments were now called 21st (The Governor General’s Foot Guards) 22nd (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) and 27th Armoured Regiments (The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment). The Machine Gun Battalion (The Princess Louise Fusiliers) would become the Motor battalion for 4th Armoured Brigade.
The 18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion would become the 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, and the Irish Regiment of Canada would be the motorised battalion in the Support Group.
On paper the creation of an Armoured Division and an Army Tank Brigade required 340 Cruiser and 178 Infantry tanks as the minimum requirement. Production of the Valiant IA* (2-pdr, diesel engine) continued at Canadian Pacific Railway, but would soon be moving to the IIA* as 6-pdr production in Canada progressed. The new CAC1 (Canadian/Australian Cruiser) known as the Ram in Canada was now being built by Montreal Locomotive Works. This tank’s gun was the slimmed down version of the 25pdr gun developed in Australia, with 3-inchs of frontal armour and 2-inches on the side, the 28.5 ton tank was powered by the Cummings diesel engine, and ran on Hotchkiss style suspension.
Since 5th Canadian Armoured Division in England were using the Valiant IA* it had been decided that the 4th Canadian Armoured Division would use the upgraded Valiant IIA*, while the Tank Brigade would use the Ram which was now in full production. Having the 25-pdr as its main armament would mean that its role of supporting infantry would have a good HE punch against enemy fortifications. Its armour wasn’t too much different from the Matilda II Infantry tank, so it was believed it could function effectively in that infantry support role.
It would take months to retrain the men of 4th Canadian Armoured Division from infantry to armoured warfare. General Crerar, before he left his role as Chief of the General Staff, had estimated that the Division and Tank Brigade might be able to be equipped and shipped to the UK before the end of 1942, then, hopefully, be fully trained and operational by mid-1943.
The General Order had become effective, and all around the camp the various officers were trying to figure out how to go about putting it into practice.
4th Canadian Infantry Division had been established in May 1940. The three Infantry Brigades had slowly taken shape, and being last in line for equipment, had slowly built themselves up during 1941. General Order 132/42 had reorganised and renamed the Division as the 4th Canadian Armoured Division.
Following the normal organisation for an Armoured Division, there would be an armoured car regiment, two armoured Brigades (each of three Regiments), and a Support group. The Support Group would still have the odd mixture of a field regiment of artillery, along with an anti-tank regiment, a light anti-aircraft regiment and one battalion of infantry.
There was already talk about following the model of British Armoured Divisions in North Africa, who had moved away from the Support Group model. That kind of Division would have its own Artillery (three field regiments) and with two Armoured Brigades and would have an Infantry Brigade (Motor) attached.
At this point however Ottawa were following the same model as 5th Canadian Armoured Division. Alongside the formation of the Armoured Division the 11th Infantry Brigade, would become the basis for 2nd Army Tank Brigade taking with it 26th Army Tank Battalion (The Grey and Simcoe Foresters) and the 20th Army Tank Battalion (16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse). These would be joined in due course by the 23rd Army Tank Battalion (The Halifax Rifles).
The conversion to an Armoured Division meant that 10th Infantry Brigade was now to be known as 3rd Armoured Brigade, and the three regiments (British Columbia Regiment, The Elgin Regiment and the South Alberta Regiment) would become 28th, 25th and 29th Armoured Regiments, but keeping their traditional names in brackets. The Lake Superior Regiment would be Motorised and stay part of the 3rd Armoured Brigade.
12th Infantry Brigade was now known as 4th Armoured Brigade, and again the three regiments were now called 21st (The Governor General’s Foot Guards) 22nd (The Canadian Grenadier Guards) and 27th Armoured Regiments (The Sherbrooke Fusilier Regiment). The Machine Gun Battalion (The Princess Louise Fusiliers) would become the Motor battalion for 4th Armoured Brigade.
The 18th (Manitoba) Reconnaissance Battalion would become the 18th (Manitoba) Armoured Car Regiment, and the Irish Regiment of Canada would be the motorised battalion in the Support Group.
On paper the creation of an Armoured Division and an Army Tank Brigade required 340 Cruiser and 178 Infantry tanks as the minimum requirement. Production of the Valiant IA* (2-pdr, diesel engine) continued at Canadian Pacific Railway, but would soon be moving to the IIA* as 6-pdr production in Canada progressed. The new CAC1 (Canadian/Australian Cruiser) known as the Ram in Canada was now being built by Montreal Locomotive Works. This tank’s gun was the slimmed down version of the 25pdr gun developed in Australia, with 3-inchs of frontal armour and 2-inches on the side, the 28.5 ton tank was powered by the Cummings diesel engine, and ran on Hotchkiss style suspension.
Since 5th Canadian Armoured Division in England were using the Valiant IA* it had been decided that the 4th Canadian Armoured Division would use the upgraded Valiant IIA*, while the Tank Brigade would use the Ram which was now in full production. Having the 25-pdr as its main armament would mean that its role of supporting infantry would have a good HE punch against enemy fortifications. Its armour wasn’t too much different from the Matilda II Infantry tank, so it was believed it could function effectively in that infantry support role.
It would take months to retrain the men of 4th Canadian Armoured Division from infantry to armoured warfare. General Crerar, before he left his role as Chief of the General Staff, had estimated that the Division and Tank Brigade might be able to be equipped and shipped to the UK before the end of 1942, then, hopefully, be fully trained and operational by mid-1943.
allanpcameron
Donor
This is pretty much OTL regarding the conversion of 4th Infantry to Armoured. The difference is in the CAC1 (Ram/Jumbuck) a joint Canadian/Australian tank, which is a mixture of the Valiant (engine and gears), the OTL Ram (cast hull) and Sentinel (Cast hull, Hotchkiss type suspension and later 25-pdr). For Canada and Australia to have both come up with half-decent tanks around the same time, it seems fair to give them a chance to cooperate and build a very decent tank.
Allan.
Allan.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Will the Ram / Jumbuck be used as a CS tank or an analogue of the "Stug" (mobile infantry gun with some AT capability) or will it displace some SPG?
I think this is the best summary of the likely German situation in this tl.
The start of the war with Japan and ongoing fighting in the DEI is going up suck up every spare RN flat top so I don't think the Arctic convoys are going to get any additional protection into the escort carriers come on stream.
Again, not so much for trucks, as the Germans gained quite a number from the British in both '41 and '42.
The Stuka? No, if there's a carrier in the area, no, they'd get chewed up.
Britain is delivering more and better tanks here, so I'm not sure the Germans are getting much further.
See above.
Older and/or smaller ships like Eagle and Furious are probably not well-suited to operations against a foe like the Japanese.
The Arctic convoys might not get more carriers after 1/1/42 but they are likely to get more battleships (QE and Valiant are plausibly not mined in Alexandria or two of the Rs that OTL were sent to Ceylon for the Eastern Fleet but could be replaced by the Queens to form a decent battle line with WARSPITE of reasonably well-modernized slow ships) and likely a few more cruisers and destroyers that could be cut loose from the Med. Losses would also be likely lower for a bit.
Why would you want a tank with Brewers Droop? Then again the Australians have named their tank after a sheep and given how large Australian sheep stations are, how far they are from town and how few women there are on them...............................................
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Well, the Far East isn't going to require so many tanks currently due to the terrain and the fact that there isn't that much land combat actually happening, only some in Malaya, Burma, and Thailand. Switching to the Valiant Mk II would allow for the usage of the OQF 75mm gun once it's developed, along with the OQF 95mm howitzer or the OQF 25-pdr Short. And even if those aren't available yet, the Valiant Mk I and Valiant Mk II use the same turret, allowing for easy substitution once guns are available! The Far East needs HE firing tank guns and dual purpose guns a lot more than it needs anti-tank guns, and the Valiant would also be a lot more useful in Europe compared to the Matilda as well.
Also, the Valiant is simpler and cheaper to manufacture compared to the Matilda II, (and that probably wouldn't change in a cast armor version) so switching would allow for more tanks to be available when the time comes that they're actually truly needed in numbers. Plus, the "downtime" from switching to Valiants from Matilda IIs would allow for a large number of CS conversion kits with the OQF 3-inch howitzer to be produced for the Matilda IIs already in service, which would be extremely useful for service in the Far East.
(Hopefully HEAT and HESH shells can be developed more quickly for the OQF 3-inch howitzer too; even early ones with low armor penetration are more than enough for the weakly armored Japanese tanks, and would allow the proportion of CS tanks to standard tanks in the Far East to be even higher than it would already be)
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They did capture quite a lot though they tended not to last very long thanks to a combination of desert conditions being awful for their longevity and relative lack of spares. But they also shipped a lot of German trucks into the theatre because the Panzerarmee Africa was the only German force in the entire war that had an entirely mechanised supply train for obvious reasons. Not doing that will be a significant benefit.
Any carrier is better than no carrier.