Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

Didn’t the USAF try to build SSBNs & aircraft carriers in the late ‘50s, too?
They probably did a paper study on it, but I doubt it got to the stage of bending metal. This was the era when all the US armed services were desperately trying to latch on to the strategic nuclear mission as a way of showing they were still relevant and thus deserving of funds, so a study like that would have been ammunition for the contest against the USN. Probably the only thing that caused Curtis LeMay any pangs of conscience was the thought that somehow, somewhere, there might be a nuclear warhead that didn't have USAF painted on it!
Exactly this.

USAF tried to claim that strategic weapons delivery (ie nukes) was their core capability. As such they wanted to take over navy nuclear capability (ie carriers and ssbn).
 
Hm, so the Japanese aren't quite out of the fight yet, but are meeting heavy resistance or outright counter-attacks on almost every front.
 
Aye the Dutch and British are doing much better than they did OTL and are giving the Japanese a pounding. The RN and the Dutch also have more victories under their belts as well.

The Yanks are doing about the same with MacArthur pissing off his allies with his little hissy fit
 
Hm, so the Japanese aren't quite out of the fight yet, but are meeting heavy resistance or outright counter-attacks on almost every front.
The fact that they managed to cross the Perak river and shows that they are still a capable army(and I think the timetable for Malaya at least, is actually still just feasible timewise, albeit with a higher than expected losses). That being said, the British actually starting to counterattack could probably suprise the IJA, especially if they do not have any defending plan for this area(and by this point, probably review the timetable, but not adjusting it yet).


P/s: When I saw the timetable for the first time, I had to take second glance since IMO, 100 days to take Malaya seems oddly pessimistic, especially when relates to the estimated time to take the Dutch East Indies)
 
Last edited:
I am guessing that in this timeline, there might be more hollywood war movies made about the Flying Tigres, perhaps with some of the higher-profile ones getting reboots once the creativity well runs dry there.
 
I am guessing that in this timeline, there might be more hollywood war movies made about the Flying Tigres, perhaps with some of the higher-profile ones getting reboots once the creativity well runs dry there.
There are also US troops in Kendari as well so alongside the Flying Tigers, they might also get media coverage
 
I am guessing that in this timeline, there might be more hollywood war movies made about the Flying Tigres, perhaps with some of the higher-profile ones getting reboots once the creativity well runs dry there.
At least one of which is likely to be banned in Britain for ignoring the fact that there are any allied forces in the area that aren't American unless they either need rescuing or are incompetent. (See Objective Burma)


On a side note can you imagine the reaction of a wartime British audience (or better yet one made up of the crews of RN and RCN convoy escorts) to the b*****t that was U571
 
Last edited:
At least one of which is likely to be banned in Britain for ignoring the fact that there are any allied forces in the area that aren't American unless they either need rescuing or are incompetent. (See Objective Burma)


On a side note can you imagine the reaction of a wartime British audience (or better yet one made up of the crews of RN and RCN convoy escorts) to the b*****t that was U571
Yes, I think considering the situation in regards to the Commonwealth in general, I think any movie that is that blatantly wrong that it could be described as anti-Commonwealth, and promptly banned even in Burma and India.


Speaking of movies, perhaps the Singapore/Malaya film industry (in addition to the Indonesian film industry) could play a major part in the production of the upcoming war films ITTL , especially catering to the Chinese diaspora to generate support for the Allies in general, and to the KMT in particular. Heck, there could also produce films that catered to the western audience.
 
Last edited:
Wonder if they will give MacArthur command ITTL? I mean given the Brits, the Commonwealth and the Dutch are doing much better I can see a lot of push back against him given here he lost while others are holding and in some cases counter attacking.
 
Last edited:
By any metric, MacArthur is going to be seen as a failure ITTL.

Slim has just launched a limited offensive in Burma, the wheels have fallen off the Japanese offensive in Malaya, with a possibility that the Empire might pocket a significant number of Japanese troops in the coming counter-offensive with fresh formations of high quality troops. Borneo has turned into a grinding match and the garrison at Rabaul did a lot of damage to the invading Japanese forces before withdrawing into the jungle to preserve the surviving troops.

In comparison, the Philippines has essentially folded like a house of cards compared to the rest of the combat areas in the Pacific and MacArthur is already screaming for the ABDA to bail him out of the mess he's created.
 
By any metric, MacArthur is going to be seen as a failure ITTL.

Slim has just launched a limited offensive in Burma, the wheels have fallen off the Japanese offensive in Malaya, with a possibility that the Empire might pocket a significant number of Japanese troops in the coming counter-offensive with fresh formations of high quality troops. Borneo has turned into a grinding match and the garrison at Rabaul did a lot of damage to the invading Japanese forces before withdrawing into the jungle to preserve the surviving troops.

In comparison, the Philippines has essentially folded like a house of cards compared to the rest of the combat areas in the Pacific and MacArthur is already screaming for the ABDA to bail him out of the mess he's created.
To be honest, at this point considering the situation at Kendari, is there a likelihood that MacArthur could be demoted enough to be outranked by the probably promoted Lt-Col Tharp?
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
What is to become of MacArthur ITTL?

As I have previously said, given that he will be seen by the Commonwealth and Dutch, as an abject failure, despite the best his propaganda team says. And that he is a political threat to FDR, being the great white hope of the Republican Party, in the USA. He has a number of problems, until the fall of the Philippines, he is isolated from the military and political decision making process, and will have very few champions advocating for him. By the time that the Philippines fall, the situation in Burma, Malaya, Singapore and the DEI, should have essentially stabilised, and the threat to Australia and New Zealand been eliminated. So there will be no requirement for an American commander in the region, which will in some regards be a backwater, to the ongoing campaign in the DEI, Malaya and Burma, plus eventually FIC. Personally I see him being recalled to stand before a Congressional investigation into the fall of the Philippines. Where his recent imperious demands of the British in Malaya/Singapore, to provide him relief, could come back to bite him in the rear. By the end of the Congressional Investigation, the Allied Command structure in the region, will have been sorted out, with the Americans very much relegated to the back seat, up until the invasion of the Philippines. And I personally don’t see him being given the command of this effort, it will be under the command of an Admiral, with a four star General as the land commander. MacArthur unless he can pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat, and somehow manage to defeat the Japanese invasion of the Philippines, is very much a busted flush.
 
28 January 1942. Valetta, Malta.
28 January 1942. Valetta, Malta.

The conclusion to the fighting in North Africa had very positive side-effects for the people of Malta. Without any need to run convoys to Tripoli, the Italian and German air forces had less pressing reasons to suppress the British bases on Malta. The Luftwaffe had focused for awhile on Crete, and the Regia Aeronautica had flown a number of missions, primarily reconnaissance, over Malta. The fighting in Russia was a greater concern in Berlin and some Ju 88 squadrons were withdrawn and sent to the fighting in the Crimea.

For the RAF, as well as the civilian population, this was an enormous relief. Squadrons which had been sorely depleted had time to rest and recuperate. With ships able to travel in relative safety from Alexandria, the island’s supply needs were being replenished and even expanded. Squadrons equipped with Wellington and Beaufort bombers, and others with Hudsons and Martin Marylands, flying search and reconnaissance missions, were building up their strength to take the fight to the Italians, or French, whichever came first.

For the infantry defenders of the island, there was an easing of the threat of invasion. That didn’t equate to their lives getting any easier, but thoughts began to turn towards offensive action. 1st Independent Squadron RTR in Malta Command had begun with 17 Matilda II and a single Vickers Mark VIC tank. Spare parts for the tanks were fairly low down the list of priorities for supply runs, so five Matilda IIs had ended up being stripped to keep the other dozen running. The Light Tank had long since been un-serviceable and its guns had been reassigned to other units.

The use of some of the tanks as bulldozers and other non-combat roles had been much appreciated at the time, and the RAF bases, the main beneficiaries of this, had been extended and improved with their help. Now that the threat level was reduced, Major Raymond Drury, Officer Commanding the Squadron, wanted to concentrate on training with the infantry.

The tanks had regularly trained with the various British Infantry Battalions acting both as aggressors and defenders. Drury had kept two troops of Infantry Tanks as the main counter-attack force should an invasion happen. The experience meant that both the Infantry and the Tankies were well used to cooperation. The idea that the garrison might have to think about moving over the offensive was something that nobody had given very much thought to.

Drury had put in a request that his force might receive something in future convoys to get his fighting force up to full strength. The Matilda IIs would certainly need full overhauls, and the arrival of more tanks in Egypt in the latest Winston Special had given him some hope of that happening.
 

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
A comparison between the Attack on Colombo IOTL, and a possible Attack on Singapore ITTL.


Colombo in what was at the time Ceylon, was a historic port city, with a long history. Singapore however was a product of British Imperialism, and prior to 1819, hadn’t as we understand it existed. By the time of TTL, while Colombo had slipped into a gentile colonial existence, Singapore had for strategic reasons become the centre of British defence plans in the Far East. The British government had spent despite the Great Depression, the sum of £60 million, equivalent to 2.5 billion pounds in today’s money, on the building of a protected naval base. The Japanese attack against Ceylon in 1942 after the fall of Singapore, was against a poorly prepared and equipped base, that hadn’t been prepared for war, during the inter-war years. And British forces that had suffered a series of catastrophic defeats in the preceding months, with the subsequent lowering of morale. While at the same time the British were under pressure in North Africa, which meant that they didn’t have resources to spare. And thus given that they were also still fighting battles against the Japanese in Burma, Britain was stretched very thin. In addition, unlike Singapore, which is at the end of an ever constricting area, Ceylon is an island with basically empty seas on three sides.

Singapore however is a small island, that is at the bottom of constricted area, with outlying islands to the East, tight waters to the East, West and South, and a major land mass to the north. It has a previously stated been substantially improved by the building of the Naval Base, at great cost. And due to recent events, both before and after the Japanese invasion of Malaya, there have been a significant number of improvements. Singapore while falling far short of the required numbers of planes, ships, guns, vehicles and men, required to make it the impregnable fortress it was claimed to be. Is however thanks to the minor improvements made prior to Japanese invasion of Malaya, and the lessons learned since, is now not the soft target it was IOTL. The combination of improvements prior and since the Japanese invasion, along with the experience gained from the attacks that have already taken place. Mean that Singapore is now a very tough nut, which will extract a very high price on any attempt by the Japanese main fleet, should it attempt to attack.

For the Japanese fleet it faces a number of challenges, in attacking Singapore that it didn’t when it launched its attack against Ceylon. Unlike Ceylon which a large island that other than to the West is basically surrounded by empty ocean, Singapore is a small island surrounded on all sides by land or very restricted waters. Any approaching Japanese Fleet, has to pass through very constricted waters, with numerous islands, reefs and extensive shallows. Under extensive air reconnaissance and any number of above sea and subsurface reconnaissance assists. The distance from Japan to Singapore from the Japanese home islands, is far greater than that from Singapore to Ceylon, with the possibility of resupplying at Penang. The Japanese Navy didn’t at the time or later, have a fleet train capable of conducting resupply missions at sea, so had to use either a sheltered area or harbour, in which to resupply especially oil. And given the distance between the Japanese homeland and Singapore, the Japanese Fleet will require at least one oil resupply, on either the outbound or return trip.

Any such attack will also face the problem that will face numerous attacks from British, Dutch and possibly some American forces, during their run towards Singapore. Before they can get into range of Singapore to launch their attacks, which will face significant opposition by the RAF forces based in Malaya and Singapore. Plus once they have carried out their attacks, they will have to withdraw, along predictably routes, when they will come under even more attacks. They also have the problem that if they use the whole of the Kido Butai, they are leaving both the Home Islands and the Japanese Pacific Territories open to attack by America forces. And that any attack is going to face a prepared defence, that for all the minimal success that the Japanese have enjoyed to date, is only getting stronger day by day. The Japanese as they did at Pearl Harbour, can only launch two or maybe three attacks, before they will have run out of munitions, and have to retire. Any attack at this time is going to see the Japanese take significant losses, while the British who will have moved their major naval units away to a place of safety. Will rapidly recover and replace any aviation losses, and repair such material damage that the Japanese inflict. Remember those big coastal guns that the British emplaced around Singapore, this is what they were designed for, and any Japanese ships that get into their range is going to be sunk. An attack by the Japanese Fleet, at this time, is going to be a major mistake.

RR.
 
Giving Malta breathing space is a really stupid move on the Axis part, this means the Allies can both Cover their convoys more effectively as Malta expands and also attack what passes for Axis shipping in the Med as well as raiding the lone warship.
 
By any metric, MacArthur is going to be seen as a failure ITTL.

Slim has just launched a limited offensive in Burma, the wheels have fallen off the Japanese offensive in Malaya, with a possibility that the Empire might pocket a significant number of Japanese troops in the coming counter-offensive with fresh formations of high quality troops. Borneo has turned into a grinding match and the garrison at Rabaul did a lot of damage to the invading Japanese forces before withdrawing into the jungle to preserve the surviving troops.

In comparison, the Philippines has essentially folded like a house of cards compared to the rest of the combat areas in the Pacific and MacArthur is already screaming for the ABDA to bail him out of the mess he's created.
MacArthur could (and probably will) claim that if he had been getting resupplied and reinforced like the Dutch East Indies and Malaya were, he would have held out longer or even won. But instead he was left to face the main onslaught from the Home Islands without hope of relief, heroically buying those behind him time to steel themselves whilst the defenders of the Philippines soaked up huge quantities of Imperial Japanese military resources.
(And if he's feeling particularly tactless he may point out that the Philippines has held out against the Imperial Japanese onslaught longer than France did against the German one once things kicked off in 1940 in the Ardennes - assuming that the Philippines does hold out longer.)
And some of this will be political horse-apples, and some of it will be true - or at least with enough truth in it to constitute a point that people have to think about.
This does not preclude him being given a medal of some kind, thanked, and packed off somewhere for a couple of years 'to recuperate from the exhausting campaign he led' with strict instructions (since he is 'recuperating') not to speak to anyone.
 
MacArthur could (and probably will) claim that if he had been getting resupplied and reinforced like the Dutch East Indies and Malaya were, he would have held out longer or even won. But instead he was left to face the main onslaught from the Home Islands without hope of relief, heroically buying those behind him time to steel themselves whilst the defenders of the Philippines soaked up huge quantities of Imperial Japanese military resources.
(And if he's feeling particularly tactless he may point out that the Philippines has held out against the Imperial Japanese onslaught longer than France did against the German one once things kicked off in 1940 in the Ardennes - assuming that the Philippines does hold out longer.)
And some of this will be political horse-apples, and some of it will be true - or at least with enough truth in it to constitute a point that people have to think about.
This does not preclude him being given a medal of some kind, thanked, and packed off somewhere for a couple of years 'to recuperate from the exhausting campaign he led' with strict instructions (since he is 'recuperating') not to speak to anyone.
Malaya started before the Philippines, and the Dutch are mostly working with green troops. Also, it was the Americans who refused to play ball on a unified regional command, so Mac has noone to blame but his own superiors.
 
Malaya started before the Philippines, and the Dutch are mostly working with green troops. Also, it was the Americans who refused to play ball on a unified regional command, so Mac has noone to blame but his own superiors.
Original timeline, wasn't it a matter of difference of a few hours between the initial Imperial Japanese landings, etc, in Malaya, and the destruction of most of the airforce in the Philippines by the Imperial Japanese?
I seem to recall reading somewhere that MacArthur and company in the original timeline got the alert from Pearl Harbour, put their aircraft in the air, but couldn't then make up their minds what to do with them, so brought them down to refuel, in time for the aircraft to get blown to pieces on the ground by incoming Imperial Japanese aircraft... Which seems to me to put the initial attacks on the Philippines within 24 hours of the initial Malaya attacks. (I get a bit confused by the International dateline in the Pacific & Southeast Asian theatres and often have to pause to try and remember what the time zone adjustments are.)
 
Top