Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.

marathag

Banned
Japan has a lot of options on the table and don't make a firm decision until Moscow is under threat. There is nothing predetermined about a Pacific war.
Clock is ticking after the US cutoff of Oil and Banking access in response to them controlling Vietnam. Unless the Dutch sell to them(and deliver), plus accept Yen, rather than Dollars, they will run out of Oil needed to keep fighting in China within a year
 
TBF Allan there have been bigger enough changes from OTL that it will affect both the Andrew and the Crab air at the end of the day.
I have no doubt. The problem I found with Ship Shape was that it became so broad that it was difficult to manage. I'm trying to be more selective here. In as far as things might change because of better tanks, I will add. I can't afford to answer every question about every ship or fighter or person that someone is interested in. Otherwise I won't make progress with the story.
Allan.
 
I have no doubt. The problem I found with Ship Shape was that it became so broad that it was difficult to manage. I'm trying to be more selective here. In as far as things might change because of better tanks, I will add. I can't afford to answer every question about every ship or fighter or person that someone is interested in. Otherwise I won't make progress with the story.
Allan.
Fair sorry if I sounded like an ass.

But with the ships freed up from Crete were they where originally damaged or destroyed it means a lot more can go east sooner. Also less steel has to be cut for replacements which mean resources freed up for othe projects.

Also the RAF can have more CAS ideas to support the army.

Hmm those Sherman's that got rocket launchers stuck on them wonder if something similar can he done with a Victor or Valiant?
 
2 September 1941. Inveraray, Scotland.
2 September 1941. Inveraray, Scotland.

The A17 Tetrarch DD (Duplex Drive) sat just behind the ramp that was beginning to lower. Previously the A17DD had shown the capability of swimming over a large body of water, ‘lowering its skirts’ and then going into battle. The next phase of testing involved the tanks being launched at sea and swimming into the beach alongside landing craft.

The three Royal Armoured Corps' Squadrons of the Special Service Brigade (more commonly known as Commandoes) were keen on getting their hands on some of these ‘swimming tanks’. They were being equipped with the normal Tetrarch which would be landed on the beach by normal Landing Craft Tanks. The capability of swimming ashore in the first wave with the infantry was a whole other possibility.

The six man crew of LCM 4 and the crew of the Tetrarch had been talking a long time into the night the previous day about the procedures that they would use. There had been plenty of straightforward tests so far. The tank had driven into the water and ‘swam’ around before returning and exiting the loch. Then the tank had been loaded into the LCM and left the ramp, straight ashore as any tank should be capable of. The test after that was pulling back from the shore to a depth where the tank sank up to the bottom of the buoyancy skirts and then driving ashore. Today was the day when the tank would roll off the ramp and into water where it would have to float, before setting off for the shore.

The driver in the tank couldn’t see anything because of the floatation skirts. Therefore, he wouldn’t be the only man on board to go through this. The tank commander would have to sit on top of the turret to be able to see and give the driver directions through the tank’s internal communication system. Both had been chosen as they were strong swimmers. They had been issued with, and trained to use, emergency Davis submarine escape apparatus, which had been adapted by Siebe-Gorman Ltd. Their confidence in the equipment had been enhanced when a driver had accompanied them under the water using the breathing apparatus. They were also assured that a boat would be immediately on hand, with the diver ready to help if needed. They’d chosen a part of Loch Fyne where, if the tank did sink, it wouldn’t be too deep for recovery, of men or machine.

It was a calm day on the loch, just a fine drizzle (known locally as ‘Scotch Mist’) falling. The driver and tank commander were rehearsing the procedures once more and double checking the communications. As the LCM reached the planned point, the driver started up the engine.

The cox’un got the order from the Lieutenant commanding the Landing Craft to lower the ramp. The engines were already stopped and the anchor dropped. All round, fingers were crossed. The tank commander watched as the ramp lowered into the water. With a wave from the RNVR Lieutenant, the tank commander ordered, “Driver, forward…slowly”. The engine revved and the tank began to creep forward. Passing the point of no return the two men had the sickening feeling of the tank leaving a solid deck and relying only on Archimedes theory of displacement to stop them sinking to the bottom of the loch. With the order to ‘Halt’ the driver disengaged the tracks. The tank wallowed, floating on the calm loch. With no signs of catastrophic failure, and no sign of major ingress into the tank from below, the tank commander ordered the driver to start the propeller. The tank began to make its way slowly towards the side of the loch, when the tracks hit the bottom, the driver re-engaged the tracks and brought the tank ashore, accompanied by cheers from all those watching.

Among the spectators on the shore was Major James Simon, OC B Squadron SSB. He was laughing with relief and cheering with everyone else. A civilian moved up beside him and as the cheering died down, introduced himself as Sir John Carden, of Vickers. While Leslie Little had been the main designer of the A17, Carden, as chief designer was keen on knowing what the users of his tanks made of them. Simon, a long serving professional Royal Tank Regiment officer knew how important Vickers tanks were to the Regiment, or Corps as it still was in his mind. Simon knew that honesty above all was crucial, he and his men would quite likely face the enemy in these tanks.

Lighting up a cigarette gave him a moment to gather his thoughts. He began noting it was an improvement over the Vickers Light Tank Mark VI. It wasn’t any better protected, its speed was slightly better, which was just as well. The track system was bit complex, but at least it carried the 2-pdr gun, so was more like a tank than an armoured car on tracks. Carden asked if it was the tank he would want to swim ashore against a defended beach? Simon had to admit it wasn’t. From all that’d been coming out of North Africa about German tanks, the 2-pdr wasn’t going to be enough. He was of the opinion that the 3-inch howitzer on Close Support tanks would be a better choice for supporting infantry, they’d be more likely to need to attack bunkers rather than other tanks. Though, he commented, a proper dual-purpose gun that could fire both HE and AP rounds would be even better. Carden nodded, this was no new idea from the users of tanks.

Carden asked him if he’d had any experience on the Valiant I or I*. Simon did, and he knew that the Valiant II was likely to appear with a bigger gun soon. Carden nodded, this was indeed true. His question was, with the theory proved by the Light Tank, how about a Valiant DD tank? Simon snorted. The thought of making a much heavier tank float was a hard idea to get his head around. His answer was ‘of course’ any tank commander wanted the best tank he could get. The Valiant was currently the best, especially if the Mark II had an improved gun, so that is what Simon would want. The plan was that three squadrons of the Special Service Brigade would be equipped with a mixture of Valiant I and Tetrarch. If the Valiant could be adapted as a DD tank, then all the better. Carden nodded again. It confirmed something that he had already been thinking about. Major Simon then gave him something else to think about.

When the Tetrarchs were coming off the landing ramps of the LCMs, they were often having to cope with up to three or four feet of water, sometimes with waves, even higher. The fitters in the squadrons had been bodging together various ways of dealing with the water, trying to make sure that nothing important, like the air intake and exhaust, would be swamped. Carden had one of his assistants with him, and asked if the Major might be in a position to allow him and his assistant to see these solutions. The idea of the need for a tank to be capable of wading through deep water, even over rivers and streams, would be worth considering.

One of senior NCOs led the two civilians to the Tetrarch DD to show them what they’d had to do in addition to fitting the floatation skirts. All apertures had been sealed and vital equipment had been masked. Extensions to the exhaust and air-intakes had been extended with trunking made from lightweight steel. In the engine compartment the spark plugs, magneto and other electrical part had been protected with mastic and tape. All the engine hatches were likewise waterproofed. The first few times the tank had been tested in water, various leaks had been found and then sealed up. Carden’s assistant took notes of everything.

Carden remembered that an A9 had been tested in 1940 at the Experimental Bridging Establishment at Christchurch. To see if a tank could cross a river underwater, a 20-foot-high periscope-like attachment had been fitted to the engine compartment. This concentric tube had brought down fresh air to the engine compartment in the outer tube, while exhausted air was returned up the inner tube. On the outside of this tube was another pipe that carried away the exhaust. If memory served him right, Carden believed the test had been successful, but not taken any further. That meant that there was data around that would be helpful in making the Valiant II more easily adapted for deep wading, not something that anyone in the desert had thought about. If a Light Aid Detachment had on hand a stock of pre-prepared waterproofing accessories, and a pamphlet with the information, then preparing tanks for a river crossing would be made much easier.

One of the senior officers at the test came looking for Carden, their car was waiting to take them back to the hotel they were staying in. Carden shook Major Simon’s hand, thanked him, gave him his business card and asked if he had any other ideas, that he, on behalf of Vickers would be happy to hear them. The Major saluted the civilian along with his superior officer. Someone in the position to do something about improving tanks was listening, that was pretty much a perfect end to a perfect day.
 
Why? As always, there is a bloody war on in Europe and not in Asia. If nothing else the troops are going to want to be where the action is.
After Tripoli (provided the Axis don't force Vichy France to allow them into Tunisia), there will be nothing the British can do, lacking as they do, any significant amphibious capabilities. Meanwhile in the east, the Japanese are

Someone in the public will want all these freed up troops used somewhere. Eg, suppressing Italy to get the Med convoy routes open again, freeing up a huge amount of shipping.
Nothing can be done on this front at present, aside from maybe seizing Pantelleria.

Japan has a lot of options on the table and don't make a firm decision until Moscow is under threat. There is nothing predetermined about a Pacific war.
If Japan were led by sane people you would be correct. Unfortunately, Japan isn't led by sane people. As soon as the Americans cut off oil and demand the Japanese leave FIC, war is basically inevitable.

Not much is probably going to change out in the east Russia is still going to get hammered because they have the same problems they did OTL.

They may get it even worse slightly due to less resources being wasted in NA by Hitler since Rommel didn't roll sixes.
The amount of stuff Russia will get in LL should be higher though, so that might well help.

"Remarkably cagey about her status." Now if this was a senior service led timeline, like Ship Shape and Bristol Fashion, then what happened to one of His Majesty's war canoes would of course be of great interest. However as this is a Brown Job, in fact, and armoured farmers and donkey whallopers TL, then what happens to some mobile artillery (seabourne) is just isn't terribly interesting, what.
Allan.
(Trying to keep this tight to the POD, can't talk about everything that happens. Work it out for yourself. I don't see much in the way of changes to what happened to HMS York ITTL. With an earlier and successful Battle of Crete, thanks to the brave men in the His Majesty's war tanks, the Navy can do what they want with their broken toy.)
Ah, so the Italians are so close in by that point, they think, "ah what the hell, we're here now, let's go through with it anyway"? I'd guess the only difference then would be that HMS York's gun are dismounted, and used somewhere else, rather than wrecked.

@Logan2879 I don't suppose you could expand that list of yours in post #1032 to include when and how those ships were sunk/damaged?


On the latest post, Valentine DDs IOTL only started development in May 1942, so this looks to be stepping up by eight months or more, perhaps in time for a 1942 attempt at taking Rhodes. One thing that would have been nice would have been name-dropping or even cameoing Straussler, given that the DD idea was originally his.
 
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Hmm I get they need to do a flat test on a calm body of water but those tanks will need be tested elsewhere as well in a swell and preferably in rough weather I know that runs a major risk but if they have to make an assault in foul weather or weather thats turning need to now how they perform in that sort of environment as well.

Heck ship a few to Cyprus for testing see how they handle Med sea condition.
 
Actually the Tetrarch DD tests are OTL.: I've been working from the premise that the DD system is tested, as it was. Loch Fyne was one of the places where amphibious operations were practiced.
A second variant on the Tetrarch design was the Tetrarch Duplex Drive ("Tetrarch DD"). The Duplex Drive system was invented by Nicholas Straussler, and was designed to allow a tank to 'swim' through water and participate in amphibious operations.[16] The system functioned by erecting a large waterproof canvas screen around the tank above its tracks, which was supported by thirty-six inflatable tubes and steel struts; this gave the tank sufficient buoyancy to float, and was then propelled along by a small propeller powered by the tank's engine. The screen could be collapsed by using a small explosive charge once the tank reached land.[16] The system was fitted during June 1941, as the Tetrarch was the lightest light tank available at the time; the converted tank was successfully tested on a number of lakes and reservoirs, allowing the Duplex Drive system to be tested on heavier tanks, such as the Valentine.[9]
Note 9 from

  • Chamberlain, Peter; Ellis, Chris (2001). British and American Tanks of World War Two: The Complete Illustrated History of British, American, and Commonwealth Tanks 1933–1945. Cassell. ISBN 0-7110-2898-2.
From Wikipedia
I get they need to do a flat test on a calm body of water but those tanks will need be tested elsewhere as well in a swell and preferably in rough weather
Please note this was the first test coming off an LCM (1). It is worth looking at the photo on the Wiki page, it shows a universal carrier, which takes up most of the space. I was wondering how they would keep the LCM from having trouble as about 8 ton of tank drives off the front! Doing it rough weather will no doubt be part of the testing regime to make sure that this isn't a suicide mission for tank and LCM. As LCTs come along, they'll have to go through the same testing procedures, presumably.

I previously mentioned the DD's inventor Nicholas Straussler in the update dated 5 June 1941:
The news from Glasgow regarding the A17 wasn’t surprising, but nor was it encouraging. As good as their word, North British Locomotives achieved building 8 A17s per month since November, so that the army were now in possession of just over half the order for 100 Mark VII Light Tanks. The first operational unit, C Special Service Squadron, were likely to be used in amphibious operations to support the Commandos. Tests on the Duplex Drive were due to begin in a few days, and Leslie Little was confident that Nicholas Straussler’s devised flotation screen would prove successful. There was also talk of examining the A17 as a possible addition to the Airborne forces that were forming, possibly being carried by glider!
 
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@Logan2879 I don't suppose you could expand that list of yours in post #1032 to include when and how those ships were sunk/damaged?

@MattII all this ships were at the battle of Crete May 20, 1941 - June 1, 1941.

"21st May-1st June, Battle for Crete - On the 21st, in the opening stages of the attack on Crete, cruiser minelayer "Abdiel" laid mines off the west coast of Greece, sinking Italian destroyer "MIRABELLO" and two transports. Most of the Mediterranean Fleet with four battleships, one carrier, 10 cruisers and 30 destroyers fought the Battle for Crete. For the Navy there were two phases, both of which took place under intense air attack, mainly German, from which all losses resulted. Phase One was from the German airborne invasion on the 20th until the decision was take on the 27th to evacuate the island. During this time the Mediterranean Fleet managed to prevent the sea-borne reinforcement of the German paratroops fighting on Crete, but at heavy cost. Most of these losses happened as the ships tried to withdraw from night-time patrols north of the island out of range of enemy aircraft. Phase Two was from 27th May to 1st June when over 15,000 British and Dominion troops were evacuated. Ten thousand had to be left behind - and again the naval losses were heavy."
 
So, due to Valentine Carden living in this timeline, there's more interaction between the special forces who are expected to actually use the amphibous tanks and the development firm, meaning that more of the kinks will be ironed out and more such tanks will be usable when the time comes, I am guessing?
 
@MattII all this ships were at the battle of Crete May 20, 1941 - June 1, 1941.

"21st May-1st June, Battle for Crete - On the 21st, in the opening stages of the attack on Crete, cruiser minelayer "Abdiel" laid mines off the west coast of Greece, sinking Italian destroyer "MIRABELLO" and two transports. Most of the Mediterranean Fleet with four battleships, one carrier, 10 cruisers and 30 destroyers fought the Battle for Crete. For the Navy there were two phases, both of which took place under intense air attack, mainly German, from which all losses resulted. Phase One was from the German airborne invasion on the 20th until the decision was take on the 27th to evacuate the island. During this time the Mediterranean Fleet managed to prevent the sea-borne reinforcement of the German paratroops fighting on Crete, but at heavy cost. Most of these losses happened as the ships tried to withdraw from night-time patrols north of the island out of range of enemy aircraft. Phase Two was from 27th May to 1st June when over 15,000 British and Dominion troops were evacuated. Ten thousand had to be left behind - and again the naval losses were heavy."
Okay. So apart from maybe HMS York, all the ships lost and damaged at Crete would have survived you think? That's a hell of a boost to the British in the long run.
 
Okay. So apart from maybe HMS York, all the ships lost and damaged at Crete would have survived you think? That's a hell of a boost to the British in the long run.
It was the most costly single Battle for the RN of the entire war

Any lessening of ships sunk or damaged would have a massive impact on the ability to surge increased forces earlier with regards to the Far East
 
Alan, has anyone thought about talking to Donald Roebling at FMC in Florida about the LVT? A LVT with a tank turret is a much more survivable option than a DD tank.
 
Alan, has anyone thought about talking to Donald Roebling at FMC in Florida about the LVT? A LVT with a tank turret is a much more survivable option than a DD tank.
Depends what you're facing. I wouldn't conside 1/4"- 1 1/2" of armour to be particularly survivable if the enemy has anything more than MGs, and maybe not even against HMGs. An LVT is an excellent vehicle to support a landing, once the area is moderately secure, but you don't really want to put it in the first wave.
 
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Alan, has anyone thought about talking to Donald Roebling at FMC in Florida about the LVT? A LVT with a tank turret is a much more survivable option than a DD tank.
The British Purchasing Commission in America included a Michael Dewar had a ride in Roebling's Alligator at Christmas 1940 and recommended it be the basis for an amphibious tank. David Fletcher's books the Great Tank Scandal and the Universal Tank note that a number of these were acquired by the British for training.
By 1942 a Landing Vehicle Tracked Mark 2 had appeared, which used Stuart Tank automotive components, with a similar rear-engine, front drive layout, but its tactical role was changing. From an amphibious load carrier for ship to shore resupply, it was now evolving into an amphibious personnel carrier, at least in the Pacific, and this brought a demand for some degree of armour protection. Further, it was not seen as ideally suited for this purpose. Its great bulk, upon leaving the water, made it a choice target, while the infantry passengers were dangerously exposed as they clambered over the sides and dropped to the ground in action. Thus in 1943 the Food Machinery Corporation undertook a redesign which appeared as the LVT(4), in which the automotive package was concentrated at the front, enabling a hinged ramp to be fitted at the rear. This not only enabled troops to disembark in relative safety, but it also expanded the functions of the vehicle to the extent that it could now load and carry small vehicles and towed weapons. Both types were supplied to Britain.
The Universal Tank, David Fletcher, London HMSO, 1993, pages 75-76
The LVT(4)A, equipped with a turret and 75mm gun did equip a Royal Marine Battalion, but the war ended before they could be used.
Once again I don't see any particular drivers for changing the LVT (or Buffalo as it was known in UK use) development and deployment.
Allan.
 
The British Purchasing Commission in America included a Michael Dewar had a ride in Roebling's Alligator at Christmas 1940 and recommended it be the basis for an amphibious tank. David Fletcher's books the Great Tank Scandal and the Universal Tank note that a number of these were acquired by the British for training.

The LVT(4)A, equipped with a turret and 75mm gun did equip a Royal Marine Battalion, but the war ended before they could be used.
Once again I don't see any particular drivers for changing the LVT (or Buffalo as it was known in UK use) development and deployment.
Allan.
One of the drivers for such a tank were 'Reefs' which were not really a thing in Europe but were a thing in the pacific and especially following the neap tide disaster at Tarawa and Makin which saw many Marines and Soldiers wading through up to a mile of waist deep water as the Landing craft could not reach the beaches and only the Amphibious Tractors could - it made sense for those vehicles to go to the forces in the Island hopping campaign first.

In Europe Landing craft and DD tanks could reach the beaches so they could use what they had and a DD tank has less design compromises than a pure Amphibious tank

I wrote a short 1 post story about such a tank here based on the A/T 1 Medium tank
 
One of the drivers for such a tank were 'Reefs' which were not really a thing in Europe but were a thing in the pacific and especially following the neap tide disaster at Tarawa and Makin which saw many Marines and Soldiers wading through up to a mile of waist deep water as the Landing craft could not reach the beaches and only the Amphibious Tractors could - it made sense for those vehicles to go to the forces in the Island hopping campaign first.

In Europe Landing craft and DD tanks could reach the beaches so they could use what they had and a DD tank has less design compromises than a pure Amphibious tank

I wrote a short 1 post story about such a tank here based on the A/T 1 Medium tank
i am the Walrus :)
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
The removable armour is more likely to be added after swimming has been completed to firm up before heading inland.

The tragic training exercise on the Devon coast with DD tanks show that they are only fair weather amphibious. Anything to improve their sea-keeping would be a boon to the poor tankers. Metal box/jerrycan side skirt floats?
 
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