What if the Islamized Seljuk Turks migrate to China on masse instead of the middle east?

[Kushim]

so I was thinking of making an alternate history based on this, though I feel a bit uncertain over whether or not the Seljuks will meet the same fate as the Mongols, Manchu, and Shatuo turks or if their religion and numbers results in a situation akin to Anatolia in OTL happens instead? some advice would be good
P.S. doesn't need to be all of China proper here, could only be the northern plains surrounding the Yellow River, the area surrounding the Liao river, or even just the south of the Yangtze (tho less likely)

 

[AtreusHashim]

The Oghuz Turks (from which the Seljuk clan arose) are on the wrong end of Central Asia for this. By the time they began to convert to Islam they were located on the edge of the Caspian Sea. Just for reference they were geographically closer to Dublin than Xi'an.

 

[Kushim]

The Oghuz Turks (from which the Seljuk clan arose) are on the wrong end of Central Asia for this. By the time they began to convert to Islam they were located on the edge of the Caspian Sea. Just for reference they were geographically closer to Dublin than Xi'an.

hmm, is it too far/difficult that it crosses ASB realm?

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

so I was thinking of making an alternate history based on this, though I feel a bit uncertain over whether or not the Seljuks will meet the same fate as the Mongols, Manchu, and Shatuo turks or if their religion and numbers results in a situation akin to Anatolia in OTL happens instead? some advice would be good
P.S. doesn't need to be all of China proper here, could only be the northern plains surrounding the Yellow River, the area surrounding the Liao river, or even just the south of the Yangtze (tho less likely)

After a Bible-esque crossing of the Gobi Desert, they would enter conflict with the native Chinese states.

 

[Kushim]

After a Bible-esque crossing of the Gobi Desert, they would enter conflict with the native Chinese states.

I feel like thats a given

 

[Nivek]

hmm, is it too far/difficult that it crosses ASB realm?

What's the incentive? There's no one in China

 

[dfl_90]

It might be more likely that a cascade of migrations results from this, putting pressure on existing populations in Tibet, Mongolia, and western and northern China.

 

[Kushim]

What's the incentive? There's no one in China

China has more greenery and rivers than the middle east for one, the silk road trade of goods coming from this eastern world might entice them, and maybe the Muslim leaders felt like spreading the word of Muhammed conquistador style?

 

[Malos]

The way I see it, the main thing you'd need to do is have them migrate and set up shop in the eastern steppes and gain enough power in that area to challenge and conquer parts of China when they eventually go through a period of instability. The resultant dynasty, as every other conquest dynasty, would heavily sinicise over time, and they might have already transformed with whatever pressures and opportunities occurred to get them in that position. A movement in that direction isn't entirely unprecedented; the Sakas originated in Central Asia before moving east, becoming integrated into later steppe khaganates. Still, it seems rare. You'd need something to get them to move east rather than west.

Honestly, the idea of a Seljuk conquest dynasty of China is super intriguing, especially if they somehow kept their religious beliefs, which would be influenced very heavily both by Chinese religion and the folk beliefs of the Oghuz Turks.

 

[Kushim]

The way I see it, the main thing you'd need to do is have them migrate and set up shop in the eastern steppes and gain enough power in that area to challenge and conquer parts of China when they eventually go through a period of instability. The resultant dynasty, as every other conquest dynasty, would heavily sinicise over time, and they might have already transformed with whatever pressures and opportunities occurred to get them in that position. A movement in that direction isn't entirely unprecedented; the Saka originated in Central Asia before moving east, becoming integrated into later steppe khaganates. Still, it seems rare. You'd need something to get them to move east rather than west.

Honestly, the idea of a Seljuk conquest dynasty of China is super intriguing, especially if they somehow kept their religious beliefs, which would be influenced very heavily both by Chinese religion and the folk beliefs of the Oghuz Turks.

yeah, my idea is that maybe the Seljuq leader at the time gets a Constantine sort of vision where Muhammed tells him to spread his word to the east or the Abbasids getting a military renaissance and thus not being that appealing to the Turks anymore.

And yeah I wonder if they will just end up losing out to the wider Chinese culture like what happened with the Manchu or if they keep a Turkic identity and create not another Chinese dynasty mandate but rather sultanates and such like an east asian Ottoman empire, personally a new culture and kingdom that isn't just another attempt at being the successor of previous Han Chinese dynasties would make the region even more cooler and exciting

 

[Avrorrange]

They get wiped out by the Khitans. They have strong competitors with other tribal/nomadic entities in the area before they could reach China.

 

[Domz]

The stark differences between Confucianism and Islam will likely mean that China's xenopobic reaction towards the West in the 19th/early 20th century will occur at a much earlier date.

A decent place to see this is India, where Hinduism has been a major religion there for 3000 years before the arrival of Islam. There, we saw that the Mughal Emperors had to tolerate Hindus due to how outnumbered they were in India compared to Muslims, confined to the North and Bengal. I do not see China ever converting to Islam unfortunately; the moment China combined both Confucianism with divine right of rule (aka Mandate of Power) meant that any alternative religion will likely never be successful in China, short of extermination or a seriously strong police state. At best, you'd have like a few thousand Turks becoming the rulers of a Confucian country of 100,000,000. The chances of the Turkic rulers ethnically surviving as a group are impossible (unless they segregated themselves like the Manchus, even then the Manchus accepted Confucianism).

China's had a long history of civil wars (whereas the Byzantines only had like that 1204-61 period of regional separation and reintegration), why would they just pacifically convert to Islam, an Abrahamic monotheistic religion with no significant Chinese history and a religion which is at direct odds with polytheistic Confucianism and the Mandate of Heaven?

The Seljuks weren't naturally Muslims either. They converted to Islam due to the power and prestige and their proximity to Islamic civilizations: they would have done the same in China and Sinicized (like the Mongols later on). The Seljuks who indeed try to keep Islam while in China will be as successful as the Christian missionaries who ended up being persecuted and executed in 19th century Vietnam and 17th century Japan.

 

[Avrorrange]

The stark differences between Confucianism and Islam will likely mean that China's xenopobic reaction towards the West in the 19th/early 20th century will occur at a much earlier date.

A decent place to see this is India, where Hinduism has been a major religion there for 3000 years before the arrival of Islam. There, we saw that the Mughal Emperors had to tolerate Hindus due to how outnumbered they were in India compared to Muslims, confined to the North and Bengal. I do not see China ever converting to Islam unfortunately; the moment China combined both Confucianism with divine right of rule (aka Mandate of Power) meant that any alternative religion will likely never be successful in China, short of extermination or a seriously strong police state. At best, you'd have like a few thousand Turks becoming the rulers of a Confucian country of 100,000,000. The chances of the Turkic rulers ethnically surviving as a group are impossible (unless they segregated themselves like the Manchus, even then the Manchus accepted Confucianism).

China's had a long history of civil wars (whereas the Byzantines only had like that 1204-61 period of regional separation and reintegration), why would they just pacifically convert to Islam, an Abrahamic monotheistic religion with no significant Chinese history and a religion which is at direct odds with polytheistic Confucianism and the Mandate of Heaven?

The Seljuks weren't naturally Muslims either. They converted to Islam due to the power and prestige and their proximity to Islamic civilizations: they would have done the same in China and Sinicized (like the Mongols later on). The Seljuks who indeed try to keep Islam while in China will be as successful as the Christian missionaries who ended up being persecuted and executed in 19th century Vietnam and 17th century Japan.

Confucianism isn’t a religion, and China had a long mutually beneficial relationship with the Muslims. The port cities were full of Muslim merchants from Persia,Arabia and Iraq etc who dominated the trade. They had an amicable relationship with the Muslims. The Chinese elite actually thought highly of the religion.The big question is what the Turks actually do in China assuming they succeeded. Are there Jizya taxes etc?

 

[Pauh the federalist]

What's the incentive? There's no one in China

To continue east like the umayyad caliphates wars with the tang dynasty.

Battle of Aksu (717) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Battle of Talas - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Muslim conquest of Transoxiana - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If the Seljuks can rise about a century earlier china would be in a prime period of division during the 10 kingdoms period during which the frontier outside china proper could probably be taken with little resistance due to the collapse of central chinases authority (the old western tang dynasty frontier control seems to have completely collapsed in this period as seen in the map below)

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Even if the Seljuks don't invade china proper during this prime window I could see them being able to essentially rebuild the borders of the first turkic empire

First Turkic Khaganate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Kushim]

To continue east like the umayyad caliphates wars with the tang dynasty.

Battle of Aksu (717) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Battle of Talas - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Muslim conquest of Transoxiana - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If the Seljuks can rise about a century earlier china would be in a prime period of division during the 10 kingdoms period during which the frontier outside china proper could probably be taken with little resistance due to the collapse of central chinases authority (the old western tang dynasty frontier control seems to have completely collapsed in this period as seen in the map below)
View attachment 867157

Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Even if the Seljuks don't invade china proper during this prime window I could see them being able to essentially rebuild the borders of the first turkic empire
View attachment 867161

First Turkic Khaganate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

now the idea of uniting the Oghuz turks a century earlier might require some fictional Chingiz-esque warlord maybe it could happen if say Tang and Abbasid conflicts in central asia were more frequent which could encourage both sides funding the turkic tribes as a way to save on manpower and eventually when the two go into decline it could follow the route that befell the Sassanid Persians and Eastern Romans perhaps (with one empire getting the shorter end of the stick than the other

 

[wakobear]

If the Seljuks can rise about a century earlier china would be in a prime period of division during the 10 kingdoms period during which the frontier outside china proper could probably be taken with little resistance due to the collapse of central chinases authority

That's exactly when the Qarakhanid embraced Islam in 934.
They already dominated the western Tarim Basin. If they can defeat the Uyghurs of Qocho, Gansu is open to them. - Perhaps with Samanid help, sending them east to prevent them pushing into Transoxiana.

Allowing them to establish a Western Xia style kingdom in Gansu, from which, they may be able to take advantage of the 5 Dynasties and 10 kingdoms to take ruined Chang'an in Shaanxi and expand briefly into the eastern North China plain.



I think it's unlikely for them to be able to establish long term rule in the North China plain, since the powerbase of the Khitan/Jurchen is too nearby.
Unless they manage to convert/integrate the Uyghurs, Tangut and a few of the tribes of the western Mongolian steppes. Like if Naimans and Keraites choose Islam instead of Christianity due to the karakhanids.
 Giving them enough manpower to contest the Khitan/Jurchen. Allowing conquest of much of the North China plain.
Especially if they gain the allegiance of the Shatuo Turk remnants of the Later Tang Dynasty 923-937.



Perhaps dominating all the north China plain by 960. Instead of the Song.
With the plain, most of the population and wealth of china would be in Qarakhanid hands, allowing the push southwards.
Perhaps also founding Kaifeng as the capital, Chang'an had long lost its glory…. Though Luoyang has better natural defences and is more controllable via the western karakhanid heartland, and has continuity with the Tang.

Ideally implementing the OTL brilliant Song administrative reforms, and perhaps fusing it with some Samanid Islamo- Persianate administrative practices. Though definitely remaining Chinese. (Perhaps Greco-Arabic scientific works being part of the civil service examinations....)

Unlike the Mongols, who faced a much more populated, wealthy, developed, fortified and most importantly unified southern China, the Qarakhanid would face what the Song did OTL, numerous divided kingdoms.

The Qarakhanid military itself would have difficulty campaigning in the humid climate and mountainous terrain of southern China, so it would be mostly done by the native Han Chinese in service of the Qarakhanid.
Beyond that, Muslim merchants of Guangzhou might be able to be convinced to fight on the side of the Qarakhanid, giving a navy and quickening the conquest of southern China

Southern Tang would be the only major obstacle.
Perhaps falling in the late 970s like Song OTL or later in the 980s and 990s.

Completing the conquest of China. How long it can be kept depends on the Khitan/Jurchen of Manchuria and eastern Mongolia
This is probably one of the only TLs where Muslims could semi-realistically conquer china by force.
The only other Muslim China would be if Ananda becomes Khan of the Yuan Dynasty instead of Kulug in 1307.
.






Thus being the third kingdom between the Song and Liao/Jin. Instead of the Western Xia.



One kingdom controlling the silk road, should make it safer and thereby more popular, encouraging more Persian-Chinese interactions.

Ideally the incredibly high level administration of the Song Dynasty could improve the bureaucracies of the Samanids and other middle eastern empires, making them more effectively run and perhaps increasing Samanid longevity....
As well as the near industrial revolution, mass moveable type printing, improved steel production, gunpowder, compass and so much more advancements from the Brilliant Song Dynasty.

Starting a new intellectual, scientific and industrial golden age in the middle east.



A surviving and stronger Samanid, might be able to redirect the Oghuz into the Qarakhanid empire, who would move them to Gansu and Shaanxi. So the seljuks would be in China.

 

[Arkenfolm]

I'm not convinced Seljuk Muslims ruling China would spread their religion outside of certain circles. It's too different from Chinese beliefs and they'd have to make many compromises on the beliefs of their Islam.

Confucianism isn’t a religion, and China had a long mutually beneficial relationship with the Muslims. The port cities were full of Muslim merchants from Persia,Arabia and Iraq etc who dominated the trade. They had an amicable relationship with the Muslims. The Chinese elite actually thought highly of the religion.The big question is what the Turks actually do in China assuming they succeeded. Are there Jizya taxes etc?

Depends on when and where. The Chinese generally had no problem with them as long as they obeyed the government, paid taxes, and didn't cause conflict. But there are several incidents where the Chinese massacred Muslims and the Yuan and Qing dynasties in particular seem to have been generally anti-Muslim (although both tolerated the religion).

And Confucianism was definitely a religion. Confucian commmentaries on the I Ching were used as religious guides and Confucianism itself has plenty of metaphysical aspects such as obedience to Heaven.

 

[Avrorrange]

I'm not convinced Seljuk Muslims ruling China would spread their religion outside of certain circles. It's too different from Chinese beliefs and they'd have to make many compromises on the beliefs of their Islam.

Depends on when and where. The Chinese generally had no problem with them as long as they obeyed the government, paid taxes, and didn't cause conflict. But there are several incidents where the Chinese massacred Muslims and the Yuan and Qing dynasties in particular seem to have been generally anti-Muslim (although both tolerated the religion).

The middle to late Tang period was notorious for barbaric warlords who were just as cruel to normal Han Buddhist/Taoists. I don’t see these massacres as atrocities specifically targeting Muslims for being Muslims. Huang Chao himself actually massacred the population of Chang’an for example, nobody thought that he was discriminatory against Hans. As for the Yuan Dynasty and the Qing, their relationship with Muslims wasn’t as bad as you thought. Under the Yuan Dynasty, Middle Easterners were ranked immediately after the Mongols, and immediately above all of the Hans. They formed an important part of the bureaucracy and monopolised the Yuan Dynasty’s economic activity. As for the Qing Dynasty, their most elite units in the late Qing era comprised entirely of Muslims. Neither the Yuan Dynasty nor the Qing were Chinese, so I don’t really count them as anything. Both of them were equally as cruel whenever they encountered resistance. Massacres were quite common for the Chinese. So I don’t think they were specifically anti-Muslim.

And Confucianism was definitely a religion. Confucian commmentaries on the I Ching were used as religious guides and Confucianism itself has plenty of metaphysical aspects such as obedience to Heaven.

He talked about Heaven but was extremely vague about who were these gods etc. He actually said that he doesn’t talk about supernatural phenomenons or spirits.

 

[wakobear]

That's exactly when the Qarakhanid embraced Islam in 934.
They already dominated the western Tarim Basin. If they can defeat the Uyghurs of Qocho, Gansu is open to them. - Perhaps with Samanid help, sending them east to prevent them pushing into Transoxiana.

Allowing them to establish a Western Xia style kingdom in Gansu, from which, they may be able to take advantage of the 5 Dynasties and 10 kingdoms to take ruined Chang'an in Shaanxi and expand briefly into the eastern North China plain.



I think it's unlikely for them to be able to establish long term rule in the North China plain, since the powerbase of the Khitan/Jurchen is too nearby.
Unless they manage to convert/integrate the Uyghurs, Tangut and a few of the tribes of the western Mongolian steppes. Like if Naimans and Keraites choose Islam instead of Christianity due to the karakhanids.
 Giving them enough manpower to contest the Khitan/Jurchen. Allowing conquest of much of the North China plain.
Especially if they gain the allegiance of the Shatuo Turk remnants of the Later Tang Dynasty 923-937.



Perhaps dominating all the north China plain by 960. Instead of the Song.
With the plain, most of the population and wealth of china would be in Qarakhanid hands, allowing the push southwards.
Perhaps also founding Kaifeng as the capital, Chang'an had long lost its glory…. Though Luoyang has better natural defences and is more controllable via the western karakhanid heartland, and has continuity with the Tang.

Ideally implementing the OTL brilliant Song administrative reforms, and perhaps fusing it with some Samanid Islamo- Persianate administrative practices. Though definitely remaining Chinese. (Perhaps Greco-Arabic scientific works being part of the civil service examinations....)

Unlike the Mongols, who faced a much more populated, wealthy, developed, fortified and most importantly unified southern China, the Qarakhanid would face what the Song did OTL, numerous divided kingdoms.

The Qarakhanid military itself would have difficulty campaigning in the humid climate and mountainous terrain of southern China, so it would be mostly done by the native Han Chinese in service of the Qarakhanid.
Beyond that, Muslim merchants of Guangzhou might be able to be convinced to fight on the side of the Qarakhanid, giving a navy and quickening the conquest of southern China

Southern Tang would be the only major obstacle.
Perhaps falling in the late 970s like Song OTL or later in the 980s and 990s.

Completing the conquest of China. How long it can be kept depends on the Khitan/Jurchen of Manchuria and eastern Mongolia
This is probably one of the only TLs where Muslims could semi-realistically conquer china by force.
The only other Muslim China would be if Ananda becomes Khan of the Yuan Dynasty instead of Kulug in 1307.
.






Thus being the third kingdom between the Song and Liao/Jin. Instead of the Western Xia.



One kingdom controlling the silk road, should make it safer and thereby more popular, encouraging more Persian-Chinese interactions.

Ideally the incredibly high level administration of the Song Dynasty could improve the bureaucracies of the Samanids and other middle eastern empires, making them more effectively run and perhaps increasing Samanid longevity....
As well as the near industrial revolution, mass moveable type printing, improved steel production, gunpowder, compass and so much more advancements from the Brilliant Song Dynasty.

Starting a new intellectual, scientific and industrial golden age in the middle east.



A surviving and stronger Samanid, might be able to redirect the Oghuz into the Qarakhanid empire, who would move them to Gansu and Shaanxi. So the seljuks would be in China.

@Kushim what do you think?

 

[wakobear]

I'm not convinced Seljuk Muslims ruling China would spread their religion outside of certain circles. It's too different from Chinese beliefs and they'd have to make many compromises on the beliefs of their Islam.

Depends on when and where. The Chinese generally had no problem with them as long as they obeyed the government, paid taxes, and didn't cause conflict. But there are several incidents where the Chinese massacred Muslims and the Yuan and Qing dynasties in particular seem to have been generally anti-Muslim (although both tolerated the religion).

And Confucianism was definitely a religion. Confucian commmentaries on the I Ching were used as religious guides and Confucianism itself has plenty of metaphysical aspects such as obedience to Heaven.

In 961, the first Song emperor appointed Ma Yize, an Arab from northern Yemen, as the head of the imperial Observatory.
In 1070, 5,000 Bukharans were brought in by teh song to fight the Khitan, lead by Su fei-erh.

Pu Shougeng was an Arab or Persian and the Song dynasty's Superintendent of Maritime Trade in Quanzhou in the mid 1200s.

The Yuan Dynasty is known for its use of Persians to rule over the Chinese majority. Up until the Ispah rebellion, at which point the Yuan turned fully against them, since rebellions were unacceptable.

The Ming had many powerful Muslim generals and commanders, with a large number of Muslims being some of the last loyalists of the Ming. But the Ming isolation policy stopped Muslim immigration and Sinicized the Muslims.


In the Qing, there were major Muslim revolts: like Dungan and Panthay. Where potentially millions of Muslims died. But this was limited to the west and didn't affect the Muslims of the east.
 Muslim generals in service of the Qing actually put down many of these rebellions. Who then became the last Qing loyalists, the renown Kansu Braves during the Boxer Rebellion. Who were in charge of protecting the imperial capital, the Forbidden City itself against the Europeans and were renown for their bravery.

- Kaiser Wilhelm II actually requested Caliph Abdulhamid ii to tell the Kansu Braves to stop fighting.....

Finally, after the loss of the Battle of Peking in 1900, the Muslims guarded Dowager Empress, Cixi, Guangxu Emperor and the Imperial Court in their escape to Xi'an.
In other words, they were the Most Trusted And Most Loyal Forces to the Qing in its final days.


Then the Ma clique is also well known. With the Kuomintang Islamic insurgency being among the last nationalist loyalists on the mainland...



Finally emperor Hongwu himself wrote a hundred word eulogy in praise of the prophet Muhammad...