What if instead of trying to match the RN ship by ship, the Imperial German Navy decided to adapt the Jeune Ecole doctrine (with some modifications, probably) and develop strategies to counter the naval advantage of the British?
WI: Kaiserliche Marine adapts Jeune Ecole
- Thread starter Tredecimus
- Start date
Seems not to match with Imperial Ambition of the Kaisar himself, wishing an oversea Empire with colonies, that also needed to be protected. A coastal force of the Jeune Ecole model does not fit in this thinking. For political purposes a battlefleet was a major part of the Imperial thinking in all nations in the race for colonies and "the greatest Empire".
Then Britain probably builds slightly fewer dreadnoughts, and invests enough money in destroyers, cruisers and subs to contain the threat.
The hegemonic naval power got that way by being able to out-build and out-spend other contenders. Its superior resources can be used to build ships other than massive battlewagons.
The only way a Jeune Ecole approach can work is if Britain simply refuses to take note of the torpedo and/or commerce raiding threat altogether. Historically, it didn't do that (unless perhaps very briefly, during the torpedo's infancy).
The hegemonic naval power got that way by being able to out-build and out-spend other contenders. Its superior resources can be used to build ships other than massive battlewagons.
The only way a Jeune Ecole approach can work is if Britain simply refuses to take note of the torpedo and/or commerce raiding threat altogether. Historically, it didn't do that (unless perhaps very briefly, during the torpedo's infancy).
Jeune Ecole?
Well, the coastal defence portion of it won't cause any problems.
The commerce-raiders, however, will send the Admiralty through the roof. Instead of walking from Rosyth to Kirkwall on an unbroken chain of dreadnought battleships, you'll be able to walk from Berehaven to Gibraltar on an unbroken line of dreadnought armoured cruisers.
Well, the coastal defence portion of it won't cause any problems.
The commerce-raiders, however, will send the Admiralty through the roof. Instead of walking from Rosyth to Kirkwall on an unbroken chain of dreadnought battleships, you'll be able to walk from Berehaven to Gibraltar on an unbroken line of dreadnought armoured cruisers.
You know, the more I think on this, the more I'd like to see a TL on it.
What might constitute a POD?
I'm thinking that Reichstag support for the string of Navy Bills fails early. Wilhelm is bitter that he can't build a respectable navy anymore, and is ripe for a new idea, until... Hooray! he discovers a new (affordable) naval enthusiasm: torpedo craft and commerce cruisers.
Think of it! The big arrogant British dreadnoughts (insert jealous grumble) being sunk by cunning German torpedoes. Commerce cruisers returning the favor when the British interfere with Germany's merchant fleet.
The Reichstag should approve: it saves money; provides at least some response to Britain's naval-hegemony-inspired arrogance; and will grow the non-Junkers-dominated Navy.
The Army will like it: it'll free up money (and steel, if that's even a factor) for the ground forces.
The British, of course, will still be terrified and Outraged. Expect a new lot of invasion-scare novels, breathlessly detailing how British battleships are sunk in job lots by the torpedo craft of the evil, nefarious (but cunning) Hun. Expect official British denunciations, and appeals for ever more funding for the RN.
What might constitute a POD?
I'm thinking that Reichstag support for the string of Navy Bills fails early. Wilhelm is bitter that he can't build a respectable navy anymore, and is ripe for a new idea, until... Hooray! he discovers a new (affordable) naval enthusiasm: torpedo craft and commerce cruisers.
Think of it! The big arrogant British dreadnoughts (insert jealous grumble) being sunk by cunning German torpedoes. Commerce cruisers returning the favor when the British interfere with Germany's merchant fleet.
The Reichstag should approve: it saves money; provides at least some response to Britain's naval-hegemony-inspired arrogance; and will grow the non-Junkers-dominated Navy.
The Army will like it: it'll free up money (and steel, if that's even a factor) for the ground forces.
The British, of course, will still be terrified and Outraged. Expect a new lot of invasion-scare novels, breathlessly detailing how British battleships are sunk in job lots by the torpedo craft of the evil, nefarious (but cunning) Hun. Expect official British denunciations, and appeals for ever more funding for the RN.
Sure it will. Anything except stationary guns (for instance, subs and torpedo boats) will have the potential to interdict British traffic in the Channel and along the southeast coast. So building even these will be spun as a provocation. Riddle of the Sands, an evil German version of Blake of the Rattlesnake, and all that. And any strong coast defense system during this period will need subs and torpedo boats.
Granted - but it's not an overt challenge in the way that a Mahanian battle fleet or commerce raiders are. Once the context of Germany-as-conqueror is established, that will be the fear and a narrative spun accordingly, but without that context they won't be taken too badly. Unless built in overwhelming quantities, of course.
German construction: ideally, a mix of battlecruisers, cruisers and AMCs or other expendable raiders.
British response: battlecruisers. Everywhere, battlecruisers. The designs could get very silly indeed. The dreadnought and the line of battle is an old-fashioned concept of little relevance now. Designs quickly hit the practical speed limit around 32 kts, before swelling into the "fully armoured battlecruiser". Also, seaplane carriers and aircraft carriers as the Admiralty grapples with the scouting problems.
German response: Fully armoured battlecruisers are impractical in terms of fuel requirements, cost and numbers - it's just a new dreadnought race - so they abandon that arms race and settle back to AMCs and expendable long-range cruisers while developing the cruiser-submarine concept to evade British cruisers. Expect lots of Type U-139s, if the technology can be matured in time. We could get some amazing designs here too.
British response: battlecruisers. Everywhere, battlecruisers. The designs could get very silly indeed. The dreadnought and the line of battle is an old-fashioned concept of little relevance now. Designs quickly hit the practical speed limit around 32 kts, before swelling into the "fully armoured battlecruiser". Also, seaplane carriers and aircraft carriers as the Admiralty grapples with the scouting problems.
German response: Fully armoured battlecruisers are impractical in terms of fuel requirements, cost and numbers - it's just a new dreadnought race - so they abandon that arms race and settle back to AMCs and expendable long-range cruisers while developing the cruiser-submarine concept to evade British cruisers. Expect lots of Type U-139s, if the technology can be matured in time. We could get some amazing designs here too.
Okay, I grant that it's not as overt as building a Mahanian battle fleet or commerce raiders. But if Germany also builds commerce raiders, then the Outraged British will spin this, too.
Archibald
Banned
Dear God, they would be better shooting themselves in the foot (shall I say, the hull ?)
The Jeune Ecole doctrine had a catastrophic impact on France early battleship and submarine fleets. The Jeune Ecole doctrine blended with the 3rd Republic chronical political instability and made the 1900 French fleet a collection of unique ships, kind of a floating museum collection.
The Jeune Ecole doctrine had a catastrophic impact on France early battleship and submarine fleets. The Jeune Ecole doctrine blended with the 3rd Republic chronical political instability and made the 1900 French fleet a collection of unique ships, kind of a floating museum collection.
I confess, my real interest here is that I want to read a TL with a very active WW1 Battle of the Narrow Seas. I've had this fascination ever since reading The Black Ship by Paul and Sheila Mandel, many years ago.
If the Kaiser is driving this as a substitute to a battle fleet, then it almost certainly will be done in quantities sufficient to greatly alarm the British.
Don't the French problems reflect the lack of political instability and prolonged construction times?
Don't the French problems reflect the lack of political instability and prolonged construction times?
On the first point, agreed.
The French naval design problems stem from those things, plus IIRC constant tinkering due to small series-runs. You build two or three cruisers, then wait a couple of years. In the meantime, you think of "improvements" and end up doing a complete redesign.
This is not an unavoidable problem. Whether the Germans manage to avoid it is a good question.
RodentRevolution
Banned
If the KM went all torpedo boatey cruiser happy would they still stand out or would the British just assume that is what Continental Navies did?
Yes the counters are pretty much the same but the big advantage by this stage was that Britain already had the round the world string of bases (the bases upon which the sun never sets) for their cruisers. So suppose if the Germans went Jeune Ecole would they also go Bob the Builder or to put it more straight forwardly would they actually invest in bases in their colonial possession for their cruisers to operate from?
Yes the counters are pretty much the same but the big advantage by this stage was that Britain already had the round the world string of bases (the bases upon which the sun never sets) for their cruisers. So suppose if the Germans went Jeune Ecole would they also go Bob the Builder or to put it more straight forwardly would they actually invest in bases in their colonial possession for their cruisers to operate from?
Deleted member 94680
How about the Germans build up their overseas Squadrons?
"...1914 German forces overseas comprised 5 cruisers in the East Asia Squadron, 2 cruisers in South American/West Indian waters, and 1 in East Africa. They were supported by gunboats and smaller vessels." Organisation of the Imperial German Navy 1914-1918 Naval-History.net
Germany built well constructed, but lightly gunned ships. If they were in the East Asia station, it would force the British to mirror their deployment and maybe even stop the Japanese from taking Tsingtao? More ships off East Africa might help Lettow-Vorbeck. If it thins the HSF it would also thin the GF, surely? How much real estate and facilities would the cost of a dreadnought build?
The British out built the Germans in terms of battleships at a relevant canter because there was a national interest at stake. If the Germans built 'mere' cruisers and torpedo boats and the British miss the significance, would the British Government allocate the funds to enter a "cruiser race"? It wouldn't be the first time a Great Power wedded to a particular method of warfare (in this case the Admiralty under Fisher) fails to respond to a "lesser" power until the horror of reality forces a change of mind.
"...1914 German forces overseas comprised 5 cruisers in the East Asia Squadron, 2 cruisers in South American/West Indian waters, and 1 in East Africa. They were supported by gunboats and smaller vessels." Organisation of the Imperial German Navy 1914-1918 Naval-History.net
Germany built well constructed, but lightly gunned ships. If they were in the East Asia station, it would force the British to mirror their deployment and maybe even stop the Japanese from taking Tsingtao? More ships off East Africa might help Lettow-Vorbeck. If it thins the HSF it would also thin the GF, surely? How much real estate and facilities would the cost of a dreadnought build?
The British out built the Germans in terms of battleships at a relevant canter because there was a national interest at stake. If the Germans built 'mere' cruisers and torpedo boats and the British miss the significance, would the British Government allocate the funds to enter a "cruiser race"? It wouldn't be the first time a Great Power wedded to a particular method of warfare (in this case the Admiralty under Fisher) fails to respond to a "lesser" power until the horror of reality forces a change of mind.
Deleted member 94680
The French problems were more political instability and how long it took them to build ships. The gap between small runs took so long, by the time they were launched, they were practically obsolete. They could only get small runs authorised due to budgetary constraints. It was a vicious circle.
I think a nation as industrialised and efficient as Wilhelmine Germany would build runs of 4 or 5 ships, then a redesign of 4 or 5 with improvements. Much the same as their battleship construction OTL.
Riain
Banned
Given commerce raiders cannot match captial ships in a stand up fight Britain will just leave its battle and cruiser squadrons based all around the world to guard naval chokepoints and thick shipping routes and blockade coaling stations and bases both in Gewrman and around the world. Given that German commerce raiding ships are unable to conduct a stand up fight against captial ships they will do what damage they can then then either be bought to battle and be destroyed or be interned in neutral countries. Closer to home British ability to defeat any German ship in home water in stand up battle will bring the naval war to the German coast, leaving the Germans thinking how stupid they were for not building a battlefleet.
In 1902 future Admiral Max von Grapow argued in favor of Germany making preparations to turn merchants into commerce raiders so as to create a window of opportunity during which the RN would have a decent number of warships hunting these raiders and would therefore be vulnerable in the north sea. With time the head of the Admiralstab Admiral Büchsel warmed up to it, but Tirpitz stayed opposed and nothing really came of it.
You can find this in "The Royal Navy and the German threat, 1901-1914" by Matthew S. Seligmann.
You can find this in "The Royal Navy and the German threat, 1901-1914" by Matthew S. Seligmann.
Driftless
Donor
Would the Germans also beef up coastal forts & artillery on the relatively short North Sea coast? If so, that might further encourage a Fisher/Churchill Baltic notion. Then, you might get a "Battle of the Belts" between a German coastal defense fleet and Fisher's (revised) Follies. That could be a fun tale - a Surigao Strait turned completely inside out...