Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
Again, all very interesting, and has no bearing on Allan’s thread?
Well the Daimler carried 52 rounds of 2-pounder ammo (40x304mmR), so I'd assume that four times that many smaller rounds (20x110) wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Hmm, it would be interesting to see how the way the war being handled by the British ITTL would effect its post-war policy in the Middle East...but that would probably have to wait for a few years...
19 March 1942. South of Alor Star, Malaya.
allanpcameron
Donor
19 March 1942. South of Alor Star, Malaya.
Major Tom Newton, OC B Squadron, 9 Division Cavalry Regiment was fuming. Lieutenant Harry Fyffe, his second in command, had screwed up, and screwed up badly, at the cost of his own life and too many others. Two tanks were burning, as were three carriers. The other tank and three carriers had scattered, but he couldn’t hear much in the way of fighting. So far, Newton reckoned the Squadron had lost at least twelve dead, probably about twenty wounded or worse, missing.
Aggressive patrolling was something the Cavalry Regiment was meant to excel at. Fyffe had led one light tank troop (3 Stuart M3s) and two carrier troops straight up the road as if they were heading for the pub. One of the sergeants in a carrier troop had been gesticulating trying to get Fyffe’s attention, there must have been some kind radio malfunction. A mine blew the first carrier to bits, and a well-prepared ambush was initiated. The Japanese had some kind of anti-tank gun and Fyffe’s tank was the first the brew up. The other tank’s demise followed swiftly, though at least it had gotten off a few shots and probably silenced a light machine gun team. The open carriers were targeted by hand grenades and fire bombs, which caused terrible injuries.
The second troop of tanks and carriers on over-watch reacted quickly, but the ambush had already done its worst. The second Light Tank Troop commander approached much more rationally, and with nine carriers covering each other as they leap frogged forward the surviving Japanese troops seemed to melt away. Something felt off, and Newton ordered everyone back to their vehicles and be prepared to fight.
One of men brought Newton a shoulder patch from a Japanese casualty, one which Newton didn’t recognise. If there was a new enemy unit in place, they would likely want to show some aggression. Setting up an ambush then drawing more Australians into kill zone was a known tactic, and now Newton’s fury was with himself. He’d allowed himself to fall for an old trick. Every vehicle was now manned and Newton ordered the light tank troop to lead the way back towards friendly lines. His own Squadron HQ (two M3s and two carriers) would follow, followed by the rest of the Squadron.
Newton wanted all five surviving tanks near the front, as he expected that there’d be a roadblock and ambush on the way back, remembering the route, he could think of a couple of places that the Japanese could use. Newton jumped into the HQ carrier with the extra radio. He gave a quick situation report, what he intended to do, and requested artillery fire support to be prepared, and if possible, air support.
The chances of either artillery or air support were limited, the patrol was quite far north of the main Australian positions, and the RAF weren’t quite up to speed on the kind of close air support that the Squadron needed. They were improving, generally able to support Brigade level operations, and some squadrons were even able to provide support at Battalion level. Supporting a mobile column was probably beyond their current capacity.
The good thing was that the Australians had got used to dealing with Japanese roadblocks, and unless this new Japanese unit operated very differently from those the Australians had met before, then Newton was confident that he could bring the rest of his Squadron back to base.
Major Tom Newton, OC B Squadron, 9 Division Cavalry Regiment was fuming. Lieutenant Harry Fyffe, his second in command, had screwed up, and screwed up badly, at the cost of his own life and too many others. Two tanks were burning, as were three carriers. The other tank and three carriers had scattered, but he couldn’t hear much in the way of fighting. So far, Newton reckoned the Squadron had lost at least twelve dead, probably about twenty wounded or worse, missing.
Aggressive patrolling was something the Cavalry Regiment was meant to excel at. Fyffe had led one light tank troop (3 Stuart M3s) and two carrier troops straight up the road as if they were heading for the pub. One of the sergeants in a carrier troop had been gesticulating trying to get Fyffe’s attention, there must have been some kind radio malfunction. A mine blew the first carrier to bits, and a well-prepared ambush was initiated. The Japanese had some kind of anti-tank gun and Fyffe’s tank was the first the brew up. The other tank’s demise followed swiftly, though at least it had gotten off a few shots and probably silenced a light machine gun team. The open carriers were targeted by hand grenades and fire bombs, which caused terrible injuries.
The second troop of tanks and carriers on over-watch reacted quickly, but the ambush had already done its worst. The second Light Tank Troop commander approached much more rationally, and with nine carriers covering each other as they leap frogged forward the surviving Japanese troops seemed to melt away. Something felt off, and Newton ordered everyone back to their vehicles and be prepared to fight.
One of men brought Newton a shoulder patch from a Japanese casualty, one which Newton didn’t recognise. If there was a new enemy unit in place, they would likely want to show some aggression. Setting up an ambush then drawing more Australians into kill zone was a known tactic, and now Newton’s fury was with himself. He’d allowed himself to fall for an old trick. Every vehicle was now manned and Newton ordered the light tank troop to lead the way back towards friendly lines. His own Squadron HQ (two M3s and two carriers) would follow, followed by the rest of the Squadron.
Newton wanted all five surviving tanks near the front, as he expected that there’d be a roadblock and ambush on the way back, remembering the route, he could think of a couple of places that the Japanese could use. Newton jumped into the HQ carrier with the extra radio. He gave a quick situation report, what he intended to do, and requested artillery fire support to be prepared, and if possible, air support.
The chances of either artillery or air support were limited, the patrol was quite far north of the main Australian positions, and the RAF weren’t quite up to speed on the kind of close air support that the Squadron needed. They were improving, generally able to support Brigade level operations, and some squadrons were even able to provide support at Battalion level. Supporting a mobile column was probably beyond their current capacity.
The good thing was that the Australians had got used to dealing with Japanese roadblocks, and unless this new Japanese unit operated very differently from those the Australians had met before, then Newton was confident that he could bring the rest of his Squadron back to base.
But the Hurricane was found effective in Burma with S Gun HE on soft skin targets. Far more accurate than rockets and could be used close to friendly troops on a smoke marked point target.
For the Daimler perhaps a single figure round clip would be a fast reload with a burst fire capacity? Rather like a fat Rarden. Three or five rounds of HE in a burst at the nasty AT gun you have just tripped over will not be terribly welcome to them. The purpose not being principally to kill them but to let you run away and report. If you have attached infantry and are prepared to fight for information then a series of three round HE bursts will certainly suppress identified machine guns. In the case of the OTL Saladin they chose to go to the low pressure 76mm gun for the support task. The 3” CS version of the Daimler was not very much used in OTL. They were working on a belt fed S Gun and that would be an effective compromise between the 2 Pounder and the 3” CS gun.
It would if Carden had visited Brandt during his France trip to better understand whether infantry HEAT ordnance needed to be taken into account in the design of British tanks (the answer being yes), and similarly, tank-cannon/antitank-cannon HEAT shells (the 1939-41 answer being maybe).
That’s just my point- he didn’t, so it’s neither here nor there.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
Ouch that wasn’t the best result to some aggressive patrolling, but given how far forward this patrol was, there was always a high risk of getting caught up in a situation where there was no chance of avoiding casualties. Thanks to some poor leadership and possibly a technical fault, more casualties have been suffered than was necessary, and some valuable kit has been lost. However the troop commander has reacted well and instead of reinforcing failure, is doing his best to shepherd his troops back behind friendly lines, with the minimum of additional casualties. While the RAF isn’t yet able to provide an instant response, the Artillery can, an should the Japanese spring an ambush on the return journey. The combination of well led and alert troops, well versed in dealing with Japanese ambushes and roadblocks, plus an rapid artillery barrage. Odds are that if as Newton suspects, the Japanese are new to the area, and thus probably haven’t fought against British Empire forces before. They are going to be very surprised by just how rapidly and powerful, the response to an ambush or attempted roadblock is going to be. While higher command is not going to be best pleased with the losses, if Newton manages to extract his force without further losses. And the information about a new to the area Japanese unit, this should go some way towards mitigating the ire, at losing such valuable assets and the men who are skilled in using them.
RR.
RR.
Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
On Crete in this timeline it occurs to me that it presents a possible target for Axis bombers. I'm not sure if it would divert original timeline Axis bombing efforts which in the original timeline went at the UK, Russia, or somewhere else, but Crete is sitting there waiting to possibly be...
www.alternatehistory.com
Allied Armoured Cars in particular could use some form of soft-recoil gun that allows for an Anti-Tank capability and an HE round. By 1943, at the latest, the 2pdr and 37mm were simply not up to the task. Something that throws the equivalent of a 3 inch mortar round, in addition to an 81mm HEAT would be very useful.
Putting a 75mm gun into an armoured car led to something the size of an AEC, which was essentially a Valentine Tank with wheels, and absurdly too tall for recon work.
Or, more simply, an upscaled puppchen...say, 100mm, with a 2 inch motor in front of about 4 inch fins, and an all-purpose warhead. A puppchen-like effective range of say 300 meters is actually ideal for recon vehicles. The hardest part of recon training and command is hammering home that the most important recon weapon is the radio, and/or surviving so you can report back in person, and everything else is only for use to escape from roadblock ambushes and meeting engagements. 300 meters of effective range is plenty for that, combined with an ample number of fixed smoke mortars.
But as noted above, not relevant in this thread. Nothing along the discussed lines would have been available to Newton's troop.
But as noted above, not relevant in this thread. Nothing along the discussed lines would have been available to Newton's troop.
You make a good point re the need for a low recoil gun. However, you're a bit hard on the AEC. Its role wasn't pure recce, it was a support platform for other armoured cars such as the Daimler and Humber so didn't need so much stealth. In addition, compared to others it wasn't too tall at 8 foot 4 inches. Yes a Daimler MkII was only7 foot 5 inches, but more comparable vehicles such as the Staghound was 9 foot 4 inches and the Skz 234 series were over 9 feet high.
20 – 23 March 1942. Moscow. CCCP
allanpcameron
Donor
20 – 23 March 1942. Moscow. CCCP
The plane that had delivered a very tired Major-General Horrocks had taken the very long route via Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, Tehran and eventually Moscow. There was mail, both personal and professional in the diplomatic pouch, and Colonel Kenneth Exham had been there to collect his visitor and the mail. After a night’s rest in the Embassy, Horrocks was ready to learn as much as he could about the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union.
Exham had been the Army Section head of the British Military Mission to the USSR (BMM) since its inception in June 1941. Lieutenant-General Noel Mason-MacFarlane, the Head of Mission had asked Exham to sort out this visitor, while he continued to focus on getting the Poles under Major-General Anders out of the gulags and back into the war.
The problem that confronted all three services represented on the BMM was the difficulties of dealing with their Soviet counterparts. Designated primarily as spies, all BMM dealings had to go through Otdel (the Red Army Bureau of External Affairs). Despite Mason-Mac’s best efforts to cultivate as much more positive cooperation, Exham was always somewhat stymied in his task. Having a British general turn up and expect information from the Red Army was asking a lot. Nonetheless Exham had pulled out all the stops and had found that some of his requests had actually been granted.
Because none of the requests involved any information regarding the Red Army or its weapons, instead was to find out about German tactics and weapons had taken Otdel by surprise. There was a clearing house of sorts for German prisoners and captured equipment just outside Moscow. What Exham had requested and Horrocks wanted to see was what front line German equipment was in Russia that the British hadn’t seen in Greece or North Africa.
When the British officers arrived at the clearing house, they were given a grand tour of the boneyard. One of Exham’s aides was given permission to use a camera, much to everyone’s surprise. The Panzer I and II were of no great interest. Likewise, the Czech built P35 and P38 tanks were much the same as had been seen previously.
The Panzer III Ausf J was identified as a newer version of the Panzer III, there were also some Ausf H for comparison, the British only had the Ausf F and G to look at. The primary concern was that the Germans had added 30mm face hardened to double its armour, something that the 2pdr would struggle to match, and, although they wouldn’t admit it, so would the Soviet 45mm. Confirmation that the Germans were using face hardened armour was notable as it meant the need for capped armour piercing shells was needed.
The Panzer IV Ausf E and F were also in the boneyard, which the British noted were still armed with the short 75mm gun, but, like the Panzer III, given double the armour of the earlier versions. Horrocks asked if it might be possible to ship working examples home, as well as some of the other captured German equipment. Exham agreed to ask, but warned Horrocks not to get his hopes up, it was unlikely that the Soviets would agree.
Later in the day the British and Soviet officers visited a holding centre for Prisoners of War. Before the winter offensive very few Germans had been taken prisoner, the Soviets now had more than 100000 behind wire. This particular centre was for German officers, three of whom were brought out to speak to the British. With Horrocks’ Great War experience of being held captive, and his fluency in German, he was able to strike up a conversation with a German Colonel while Exham distracted the Soviet minders with the other Germans. A packet of cigarettes went a long way to getting the Prussian to speak freely. He claimed he was never a Party member and was a professional soldier, held back from becoming a General because of his well-known antithesis to ‘political interference’ in Wehrmacht affairs.
His treatment at the hands of the Soviets since his capture had been fairly brutal and he claimed that his fellow officers had ostracised him, leaving him more vulnerable. Horrocks was prepared to take most of this with a pinch of salt, but asked Exham if it were possible to ask the Soviets to send some German prisoners with the equipment. Exham managed not to roll his eyes, and once again agreed to put the request through the proper channels to Otdel.
For the next couple of days Horrocks had a number of meetings with various Soviet ‘experts’ on the German invaders and when it was time to head back, Exham revealed, to his own surprise, that the Soviets had agreed to send the requested list of German equipment to Murmansk, along with a small number of POWs, to be brought back to Britain in the next QP convoy. Exham couldn’t believe Horrocks’ luck, though having a British General speaking excellent Russian certainly helped.
The plane that had delivered a very tired Major-General Horrocks had taken the very long route via Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, Tehran and eventually Moscow. There was mail, both personal and professional in the diplomatic pouch, and Colonel Kenneth Exham had been there to collect his visitor and the mail. After a night’s rest in the Embassy, Horrocks was ready to learn as much as he could about the Wehrmacht in the Soviet Union.
Exham had been the Army Section head of the British Military Mission to the USSR (BMM) since its inception in June 1941. Lieutenant-General Noel Mason-MacFarlane, the Head of Mission had asked Exham to sort out this visitor, while he continued to focus on getting the Poles under Major-General Anders out of the gulags and back into the war.
The problem that confronted all three services represented on the BMM was the difficulties of dealing with their Soviet counterparts. Designated primarily as spies, all BMM dealings had to go through Otdel (the Red Army Bureau of External Affairs). Despite Mason-Mac’s best efforts to cultivate as much more positive cooperation, Exham was always somewhat stymied in his task. Having a British general turn up and expect information from the Red Army was asking a lot. Nonetheless Exham had pulled out all the stops and had found that some of his requests had actually been granted.
Because none of the requests involved any information regarding the Red Army or its weapons, instead was to find out about German tactics and weapons had taken Otdel by surprise. There was a clearing house of sorts for German prisoners and captured equipment just outside Moscow. What Exham had requested and Horrocks wanted to see was what front line German equipment was in Russia that the British hadn’t seen in Greece or North Africa.
When the British officers arrived at the clearing house, they were given a grand tour of the boneyard. One of Exham’s aides was given permission to use a camera, much to everyone’s surprise. The Panzer I and II were of no great interest. Likewise, the Czech built P35 and P38 tanks were much the same as had been seen previously.
The Panzer III Ausf J was identified as a newer version of the Panzer III, there were also some Ausf H for comparison, the British only had the Ausf F and G to look at. The primary concern was that the Germans had added 30mm face hardened to double its armour, something that the 2pdr would struggle to match, and, although they wouldn’t admit it, so would the Soviet 45mm. Confirmation that the Germans were using face hardened armour was notable as it meant the need for capped armour piercing shells was needed.
The Panzer IV Ausf E and F were also in the boneyard, which the British noted were still armed with the short 75mm gun, but, like the Panzer III, given double the armour of the earlier versions. Horrocks asked if it might be possible to ship working examples home, as well as some of the other captured German equipment. Exham agreed to ask, but warned Horrocks not to get his hopes up, it was unlikely that the Soviets would agree.
Later in the day the British and Soviet officers visited a holding centre for Prisoners of War. Before the winter offensive very few Germans had been taken prisoner, the Soviets now had more than 100000 behind wire. This particular centre was for German officers, three of whom were brought out to speak to the British. With Horrocks’ Great War experience of being held captive, and his fluency in German, he was able to strike up a conversation with a German Colonel while Exham distracted the Soviet minders with the other Germans. A packet of cigarettes went a long way to getting the Prussian to speak freely. He claimed he was never a Party member and was a professional soldier, held back from becoming a General because of his well-known antithesis to ‘political interference’ in Wehrmacht affairs.
His treatment at the hands of the Soviets since his capture had been fairly brutal and he claimed that his fellow officers had ostracised him, leaving him more vulnerable. Horrocks was prepared to take most of this with a pinch of salt, but asked Exham if it were possible to ask the Soviets to send some German prisoners with the equipment. Exham managed not to roll his eyes, and once again agreed to put the request through the proper channels to Otdel.
For the next couple of days Horrocks had a number of meetings with various Soviet ‘experts’ on the German invaders and when it was time to head back, Exham revealed, to his own surprise, that the Soviets had agreed to send the requested list of German equipment to Murmansk, along with a small number of POWs, to be brought back to Britain in the next QP convoy. Exham couldn’t believe Horrocks’ luck, though having a British General speaking excellent Russian certainly helped.